Salvation and God's Sovereignty

[Van]

Thanks SG, I had no idea you think Unconditional Election is bogus.

Here is the quote folks:

SG, you can deny we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
I don't. Please show me where I have.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks SG, I had no idea you think Unconditional Election is bogus.

Why would you think that the fact that we are chosen for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) prohibits belief in Unconditional Election?

And why would you think that 'from the beginning' is necessarily different to 'before the foundation of the world'?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Matthew 23:13 says natural men were seeking God, actually in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven. You are with those that deny this obvious truth.

Since the truth of this verse is so 'obvious,' would you please answer this question for me?

Did the men in Matthew 23:13 enter the kingdom of heaven or did they not?

There's no need for a long screed. It's either 'yes, they did,' or 'no, they didn't.'

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thanks SG, I had no idea you think Unconditional Election is bogus.

Here is the quote folks:

I think unconditional election is what the bible proclaims. It is most certainly not bogus, so please do not twist my words to say what they do not. God's election was based solely upon Himself choosing us and not us choosing Him.

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it t is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one." “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[Romans 3:9-18] As you can see by the way Paul writes this, the disposition of the unregenerate is they would never choose God, never seek after Him. If God had not chosen us Van, we would have never chosen Him.

 

[Van]

SG claims we can be chosen through faith in the truth and still be chosen unconditionally! You have got to love them folks.

There is no one who seeks God all the time. There is no one who seeks God when they are sinning. But is there no one who seeks God at any time? See Matthew 23:13.

And Martin, how many times have I answered your question. Matthew 23:13 clearly says they were blocked, they did not enter. Will he ask it again? You bet. Obfuscation on display.

 

[SovereignGrace]

SG claims we can be chosen through faith in the truth and still be chosen unconditionally! You have got to love them folks.

I did not claim it, God stated it. Got a problem with it...take that up with God, not me. It is not my fault you routinely flunked Bible Basics 101.

There is no one who seeks God all the time.

There are no men who seek God, period. Moses didn't. Abram didn't. David didn't. Adam didn't. None of the Disciples were looking for Him when He appeared unto them. Again, you routinely flunked Bible Basics 101 and want to take your angst out on us.

There is no one who seeks God when they are sinning. But is there no one who seeks God at any time? See Matthew 23:13.

The warped wheel just keeps rolling down the hill. Ka-thunk...ka-thunk...ka-thunk...kathunk...

And Martin, how many times have I answered your question. Matthew 23:13 clearly says they were blocked, they did not enter. Will he ask it again? You bet. Obfuscation on display.

Will anyone who truly seeks God die lost?

 

[Van]

SG, repeating mistaken views will not alter obvious scripture. All the OT saints sought God, including Abraham.

I keep reminding others of Bible Basics 101 such as the Bible means what it says. God's election for salvation is conditioned on faith in the truth. You can deny it till the cows come home, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is crystal.

People seek God all the time in scripture, such as the men in Matthew 23:13. The bible proclaims the unnamed doctrine is mistaken again and again.

God is sovereign, He causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

SG claims we can be chosen through faith in the truth and still be chosen unconditionally! QUOTE]
Since it is God who gives us faith, of course you can.

There is no one who seeks God all the time. There is no one who seeks God when they are sinning. But is there no one who seeks God at any time? See Matthew 23:13.

Your argument is with God. Psalm 14:2-3.

And Martin, how many times have I answered your question. Matthew 23:13 clearly says they were blocked, they did not enter.

Thank you for answering it clearly this time. Usually you obfuscate
If they were 'blocked,' then they did not enter. Therefore 'unregenerate' people were not entering the kingdom. If they were not 'blocked' then the Pharisees couldn't keep them out. Take your pick.

The fact of the matter has been clearly explained to you many times. I explain it again, not for your benefit, but for anyone reading your posts who might think you know what you're talking about.

The Greek verb aphiemi usually means 'forgive' (47 times in the N.T.). It has a variety of other meanings, but I don't know of any translation that renders it as 'blocked,' do you? Here it is translated 'suffer' (KJV), 'allow' or 'permit.' Is murder permitted in the USA? Does it still happen? Are illegal immigrants allowed across the border with Mexico? Do they still cross? Did the Church of Rome allow people to come to Christ at the Reformation? Did they still come, often even at the cost of their own lives?

So what was happening with these men? The scribes and Pharisees were not permitting them to come to Christ. The best example of this is the 'man born blind' in John 9. The Jews tried everything to keep him from following Jesus: they abused the Lord (v.16); they brought the man's parents in (vs. 18-23); they abused him (v.28), and when nothing else worked, they excommunicated him (v.34). But none of that could keep the Good Shepherd from claiming His sheep (vs. 35-38).

So it was with these men in Matthew 23:13. Religious authorities are not stronger than God, whatever Van thinks. The Lord Jesus says, "I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Van thinks the Lord Jesus will build His church just so long as the scribes and Pharisees will let Him.

 

[Van]

As I say, the nameless doctrine is defended with absurdity. Martin will have you swallow we are given faith before we are chosen. You have got to love them folks.

Then talk about ripping verses our of context, Martin cites Psalm 14:2-3, skipping 1, and 4-5. Those that sought God as a refuge do not seem to appear in Martin's version. Go figure.

Next, since the men of Matthew 23:13 did not complete their entry, they were never entering. Again this denies the very words of Christ.

Next we get an attempt to rewrite Matthew 23:13 such that it does not say the men were blocked, prevented from entering.

NASB - ...because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

NKJV - ...For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Finally the absurdity of absurdities, the false claim I think men are stronger than God. If God's plan was as falsely claimed by the nameless doctrine, then because God desires all men to be saved, He would compel rather than beg or beseech. They deny verse after verse, now including God begs lost through us to be reconciled to God. You have got to love them folks.