Salvation and God's Sovereignty

[Van]

Hi Percho, all your "the faith of the Father" is nonsense.
Two, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our future adoption, the redemption of our bodies.
Three, Galatians 3:2 says we received the Spirit by hearing (the gospel) with faith (trusting in Christ).

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrel C, first, let me call into question your view of root cause. Because God alone established His redemption plan, that included saving people by grace through faith, God remains the root cause of salvation.

Van...that's what I said. lol


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

No! God told Abraham the promise and prophesy of God.

No! God told Abraham to pack his bags! lol

God bless.

 

[Van]

Hi Darrel C, I understood you to say our faith must be God generated in order for God to be the root cause. OTOH, if God's plan was to credit our self generated faith, God would still be the root cause of salvation.

Pack you bags was not the only thing God told Abraham, LOL

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes Darrell C, the root cause is God alone who saves us "through faith." Some would deny we are saved through our faith in Christ.

Who has denied this sunshine? None that I have read on here.

You can claim the lost will never seek God, but Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches the assertion is false.

Pelagius made the same claim. That/this view is anathema.

 

[Van]

Hi SG, Every advocate of "Irresistible Grace" and "Total Spiritual Inability" denies we are saved by our faith in Christ.

Matthew 23:13 says natural men were seeking God, actually in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven. You are with those that deny this obvious truth.

 

[Yeshua1]

And I think that is the underlying point of contention here: the root cause is and always has been God.

We love Him because He first loved us.

We didn't decide to be saved before first being called. He does the calling, He is the Savior. We are saved, at the heart of the matter, by God alone. To think otherwise imposes an ability in man that Scripture flatly denies.

As I often say, the only "free will" man will ever exercise in a salvific context is to exercise that which his nature and condition affords him...rebellion and rejection. And even in that, God must first initiate an understanding of the truth so that the unregenerate can cater to their nature.


God bless.

Would say that due to us being dead in our sins, and sinners by both nature and choice, that apart from the Holy spirit enabling us to see our need for salvation, and giving jesus to us for that, we will 'freely choose" to stay lost in darkness and sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

Y1, you deny you were saved by grace through faith. You make the false claim we are saved, then given faith.

And you deny that the spiritually dead sinners were entering the kingdom of heaven, Matthew 23:13.

So we can add another scripture to the list of scriptures you deny.

At some point, one would think the penny would drop and you would come to your senses.

So what moved you to come to jesus then, your choosing Him first, or God first choosing you?

 

[Darrell C]

Would say that due to us being dead in our sins, and sinners by both nature and choice, that apart from the Holy spirit enabling us to see our need for salvation, and giving jesus to us for that, we will 'freely choose" to stay lost in darkness and sin!

Does the leopard freely choose to have spots? lol

Understand, my friend, that the proclivity to sin is not a choice if one has no other choice. And that is the case in natural man because...

...he is separated from God.

You see, the natural man does not view himself as "lost and in darkness and sin." He does not view what he does as wrong.

Because he has nothing but himself, and others of humanity...by which to measure himself by.

We were all the good guys in our own little movies until the Holy Ghost enlightened us to the reality of our condition. He does that for every man, ministering light according to the revelation that is provided to each man. For the guy in deepest darkest Africa that has never heard the Gospel, He ministers according to the internal witness provided every man. For the one that hears the Gospel, He ministers the Light of the Gospel.

The result is that when confronted with truth, the natural man either obeys that truth or rejects it. The natural tendency is to reject, because that is, after all...natural for him. Right?

So the Holy Spirit enlightening men does not mean that enlightenment brings a forced response. A man can obey the Gospel and be saved, or, like the false teachers (and false prophets) of 2 Peter 2...they can turn away from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.


God bless.

 

[Van]

So what moved you to come to Jesus then, your choosing Him first, or God first choosing you?

Why not address the verses referenced and indicate their validity. Why change the subject, and not seek reconciliation?

But because I actually seek to come to a common understanding, I will once again answer your questions.

God formulated His redemption plan before creation. He chose God the Son to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. And you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on redeeming. Thus every born anew believer was chosen corporately before the foundation of the world.

However, no one was chosen individually until God sets them apart in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) based on God crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness.

Y1, you can deny being chosen in Him refers to a corporate election.
Y1, you can deny the Lamb of God was chosen before the foundation of the world.
Y1, you can deny that from the foundation of the world refers to a different period than before the foundation of the world.
Y1, you can deny God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness.
Y1, you can deny we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.

Unless you address scripture and provide an alternate interpretation of all these verses, it is difficult to respond.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi SG, Every advocate of "Irresistible Grace" and "Total Spiritual Inability" denies we are saved by our faith in Christ.

Matthew 23:13 says natural men were seeking God, actually in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven. You are with those that deny this obvious truth.

Mt.23....in another thread. ...what a surprise

 

[Van]

God's word demonstrates your doctrines are unbiblical.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi SG, Every advocate of "Irresistible Grace" and "Total Spiritual Inability" denies we are saved by our faith in Christ.

Matthew 23:13 says natural men were seeking God, actually in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven. You are with those that deny this obvious truth.

If it's sooooooo obvious sunshine, then why are you on an island? Where's Friday?

 

[SovereignGrace]

God's word demonstrates your doctrines are unbiblical.

And quoting the same grotesque error over....and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...sunshine...does not make it correct. Find me one person on here who agrees with your warped exegesis of Matthew 23:13...

 

[Van]

LOL, SG, I am not the one posting inane arguments for Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace over and over and over.

Folks, verse after verse is denied in order to proclaim these mistaken doctrines. See post #70. Matthew 23:13 is just one of them!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

LOL, SG, I am not the one posting inane arguments for Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace over and over and over.

Folks, verse after verse is denied in order to proclaim these mistaken doctrines. See post #70. Matthew 23:13 is just one of them!!

Alright sunshine...poll this place and see how many agree with your warped, grotesque view of Matthew 23:13. When one is on an deserted island, one is alone. Find Friday yet, Rob?

 

[Van]

SG, do you even realize your method of determining truth is a fallacy?

God formulated His redemption plan before creation. He chose God the Son to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. And you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on redeeming. Thus every born anew believer was chosen corporately before the foundation of the world.

However, no one was chosen individually until God sets them apart in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) based on God crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

SG, you can deny being chosen in Him refers to a corporate election. (Ephesians 1:4)
SG, you can deny the Lamb of God was foreknown before the foundation of the world. (1 Peter 1:20)
SG, you can deny that from the foundation of the world refers to a different period than before the foundation of the world. (Revelation 17:8)
SG, you can deny God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5/24)
SG, you can deny we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Van sunshine, I deny nothing that is biblical. That is why I deny your teachings. They are anti-biblical.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Van, please accept my apology. I have acted rather unseemly towards you. I hope we can start over new. Again, I offer you my sincere apology.

 

[SovereignGrace]

SG, do you even realize your method of determining truth is a fallacy?

What do you mean here? Please elaborate.

God formulated His redemption plan before creation.

Agree.

He chose God the Son to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before the foundation of the world.

Agree.

And you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on redeeming.

Agree.

Thus every born anew believer was chosen corporately before the foundation of the world.

God chose a ppl in Christ before the creation of the world. If this is what you mean, then we agree here. If not, please explain where I am not understanding your viewpoint.

However, no one was chosen individually until God sets them apart in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) based on God crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

This is where our agreements end. God chose them/us from before the creation of the world/from the creation of the world, so they were already 'set apart' in His mind(or it appears to be that way to me) to save them via the shed blood of the Lamb. But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[2 Thessalonians 2:13-14] We are saved by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, both of us agree here. But, it was based upon Him electing us(choosing us) that the sanctifying work of the Spirit worked within us to bring us unto Christ via the word of God.

SG, you can deny being chosen in Him refers to a corporate election. (Ephesians 1:4)

I do. This view is like Brother Iconoclast stated...the train is the corporately elected and those who choose to get on that train elect themselves.

SG, you can deny the Lamb of God was foreknown before the foundation of the world. (1 Peter 1:20)

I don't. Please show me where I have.

SG, you can deny that from the foundation of the world refers to a different period than before the foundation of the world. (Revelation 17:8)

I don't. Please show me where I have.

SG, you can deny God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5/24)

It is only our faith after God quickens us and imparts unto us the gifts of faith and repentance. See Romans 12:3 and Romans 2:4.

SG, you can deny we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

I don't. Please show me where I have.