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2 Corinthians 5
14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Therefore all died.

Does this imply we died with Christ?


Has Jesus Christ been eternally separated from God?

 

Payment and Forgiveness cannot coexist. If you think your paying up God then God does not forgive anything.


You owe God 2$ you say Jesus paid 2$ you were suppose to pay.

Our view is a bit more like , We say you owe 2$ Jesus paid 2000$ and instead of just getting change God adopted you as a son.


God gave you Jesus.

God did not torture Jesus. If you think you deserve hell , eternal separation from God, Jesus has not been eternally separated from God.


God didn't pull the trigger. You pull your own trigger. Jesus Christ is the savior namely from yourself.

 

Metaphorically speaking our death is the death He died. His death is substituted for the death we would have had to pay if we rejected His death.

It is an impossibility for God to be separated from Himself.

But, if you want to take the popular pulpit teaching and consider that you were there on the Cross, then you stand in a large company of believers who do also. It's not going to be an issue with me until you impose a salvific context into you "dying on the Cross with Christ."

The death you owed was taken upon Christ. That is why it is called vicarious death, Utilyan.


God bless.

 

Of course they can:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

But Utilyan...I am saying we do not, in any way...contribute to the payment for the penalty of sin.

Christ alone did that.

I have already tried to distinguish the difference between the payment for sin accomplished by Christ and your merging of a financial transaction into the concept.

Not going to argue that, though in view is a Death for a death. Eye for an eye is a basic principle.

BEcause that is not understood, some take on a view that Christ died the Second Death, or, continued, in Hades, making Atonement by being there.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

It was finished, complete...on the Cross.

He did not exclaim "...It's almost finished!"

Amen.

Amen.

Sin tortured Christ. Man's fallen condition tortured Christ.

That is why He came.

All men deserve Hell.

That is just a basic principle as well.

"Deserving" Hell, though, is not just a matter of sin, but is directly related to the fact that men are not in relationship with God when they are born. It is probably better thought along these lines...men are not deserving of Heaven.

Agreed in large part, but, we do not negate the circumstances Scripture teaches us about which thrust man into a condition where sin was his natural proclivity.

That is...the Fall.

We don't take the position that a baby dying can truly be said to have deserved it. They don't. But, neither does the baby deserve, after dying, entrance to God's presence in Heaven, because the baby, free from committing sins, still has no meritorious quality that overrides the fact that they are separated from God.

That is where the grace of God enters the discussion: even as the Old Testament Saint did not have the penalty of sin exacted upon him or her because God's grace made provision for their sin, even so the baby is the beneficiary of God's grace. God will judge that baby the same way He judges all men, according to their response to His revealed will. And because that baby never had the chance to respond, they benefit from God's grace.

The same is true of the Old Testament Saints, who were judged according to that which was revealed to them. The shedding of blood (death) was a provision revealed to them, and when they appealed to that provision, they were forgiven their sins on a temporary basis. That remission of sins is not to be equated to the remission of sins achieved by Christ, which is not temporary, but Eternal Remission (Hebrews 9:12).

And now, my friend...I go to build a fence.

My hope is that the fence that exists here might eventually be dismantled.





God bless.

 

Bit of a pickle.

Jesus has not taken "the WRATH we deserved" Eternal Separation from God.


You said:
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I view the idea that we "spiritually died on the Cross with Christ" a fallacious popular teaching not supported by Scripture.
If that were the case then we would preach "We died for sins" rather than He died for the sins of the world.
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Scripture says we died with him

2 Corinthians 5
14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.


Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.



Its funny Paul thinks "WE WHO DIED TO SIN" and you think "If that were the case then we would preach "We died for sins" rather than He died for the sins of the world."

Maybe you should answer Paul's questions?

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?




A good leader has lots of followers, A great leader makes leaders of others.

I think someone took their humility a notch into false humility can't accept our unity with Jesus. So its like they keep trying to put the curtain/veil that divided us from God back up.

 

Great, so you think Christ is eternally separated from God.

Could you quote one Catholic that embraces your teaching, Utilyan?

So you died for the sins of the world.

Great, could you quote a Catholic that agrees with you?

Note what it actually states, Utilyan: One died for all.

Note: Him Who died and rose again on their behalf.

Note: He died for all.

Not: we all died for the sin of the world.

We are the world, He is the Savior. And if the song gets stuck in your head...serves you right!

Note the difference between dying to sin and dying for sin.

Note the difference between dying to sin and dying for sin.

I don't think Paul taught this, I know he did. It's right there for you to also know.

Paul isn't asking me, lol, he's telling me.

Now I am trying to tell you what he said.

You confuse dying to sin with dying for sin, and create a flase concept, no, rather, as I said, you perpetuate a false concept many people embrace.

Hear, o Utilyan, there is One God, and besides Him there is no other Savior.

I do. The difference being...I actually understand what being Baptized into Christ actually means.



Again it refers to His vicarious death on behalf of you...a sinner.

Not some mythological error that we were with Christ when He died on that Cross.

And my only intention is to glorify Christ.

But, while we are on the subject, we could examine your leader, the Catholic Church, and consider just how far you have departed from Catholic teachings. If you don't mind, please quote Catholic teaching that teaches man participated in the Remission of sins and Reconciliation Christ accomplished. Show me where Catholic teaching equates our being dead with Christ with Christ dying with us, rather than for us.

Mary, maybe, lol, you could probably find some Catholics who embrace the equally false concept of the Co-Redemptrix.

Which shows you are not familiar with the views I present on a regular basis, for I consistently teach that the Veil we go through is...

...Christ alone:


Hebrews 10:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Secondly, unity with God is in fact being baptized into Christ. This is reconciliation between God and man that was accomplished by Christ through His Work...

...alone.

If you ever work through this error of thinking you died on the Cross with Christ, perhaps we might discuss it.




God bless.

 

Did Jesus take the punishment you deserved, Eternal Separation from God? YES/NO?

Easy YES OR NO QUESTION

You can't say well I deserve eternal separation from God, but Jesus got slapped wrist.


Your idea of "God's wrath" is a joke.


If he took the bullets "ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM GOD" say that then.


Penal substitution is so STUPID you can't even force it to work right.