Featured Paradise Purgatory - the "other" option

What if Purgatory were real - let's take the best possible "purgatory" scenario using the "Wonderful Purgatory" model that some here have suggested as our template.

You arrive in purgatory - on your way to heaven - and you find that you no longer have the devil and demons to tempt you to evil. What is more nobody in purgatory tries to tempt you to sin.

Whahoo!!

Better still - you find that you no longer have a sinful nature. No more inner carnal nature driving you toward sinning.

Whahoo!! again!. This must be heaven!.

Well then "oops!" you do have a few rough edges... a bit of a "fixer upper" with that tendency to doubt or gossip. And of course "no sinning in purgatory" -- that is not allowed!. Time to brush up on your "commandment keeping". (wouldn't want to show up in heaven still trying to get to "one day without sinning")

But the good news is that purgatory is designed to get you to "graduate" as the sweetest, kindest - most joyful and unselfish saint -- with nothing but goodwill for all others!! And nobody there is sinning so you are getting lots of help.

You will spend time in peaceful gardens of unimaginable beauty and you will have mentors encouraging you in worship, songs, praise, sharing Bible stories - and the model of kindness and love for others.

Well after a few thousand days of this paradise - someone comes up to you and says "hey you are ready for heaven" but you respond --- "I have become so unselfish and so loving of others here - I would like to stay for another 10 days or so just to make sure that I have no chance at all of marring the perfection of heaven with even the remotest possibility of a defective character on my part".... and your wish is granted in this scenario.

You decide that as a post-grad you would like a "ministry for others" and you decide to go to the gates and "welcome the newcomers" helping others get oriented just as others helped you when you first entered.

A man pops into view at the gate - and it is clear from the not-so-peaceful look on his face that he has "a few issues". some "whopping defects of character" to be worked out.

Well this is what Purgatory is for!! You welcome him with open arms and offer to be his guide and help him find the perfect spot for peaceful relaxation and meditation. This is going to be a blessing for both of you.

But just as you start into your welcome and intro --- he suddenly has a puzzled look on his face - gets a bit dizzy and then POOF!! he is gone!.

What happened! you ask. One of the other post-grads informs you that this is what happens to people when someone on earth earns a plenary indulgence for them -- an indulgence that actually gets the "funds transfer as promised" --

"Yeah but that guy had a few unresolved issues - some real rough edges" you are worried.

"Too bad -- guess the people in heaven will be in for a bit of a shocker" - comes the much anticipated response.

OR does that other post-grad say --

"There is an instant-fixer zapper that we have where all of this Purgatory time is not needed they zap you into heaven and all your character defects are instantly gone - they never really needed this purgatory step at all - it was just a form of entertainment to make life more interesting and to create a need for indulgences for those who do not like the idea of this sort of paradise, and besides in the early days it was a good source of revenue to flow into the church from both rich and poor concerned about stories they were being told regarding departed loved ones".

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At which point our story ends -- and we begin to see how it is that all of this man-made not-in-the-Bible not-the-gospel fictional story might fly in the dark ages - but not in the light of day -- and not at all with the "punish" and "Same as the fires of hell" verbiage so often associated with "Purgatory".

To be fair it has three purposes.
1. initially to make revenue off of the fear generated from stories told the living about the departed.
2. To emphasize the discretion and good-graces of the RCC in rescuing/saving the already-saved "if the RCC so wishes".
3. To provide a "wide road" to heaven - where all but the worst "get heaven" no matter their unchristian character defects at the end of their life.

 

What sort of "stories" would be generating "fear" here on earth - regarding purgatory and our departed loved ones? -- when did they start telling those stories?

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

The Catechism states

1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."

Vatican II documents state:

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

-----next source quote
Do you believe that those who are going to heaven - must be subjected to the "fires of hell" in Purgatory?
According to Catholic teaching you cannot go to heaven or purgatory - if you die with mortal sin on your soul - having not been absolved from it in this life.

For example - what some of them call "mild envy" Coveting is a "venial" sin according to Catholic tradition.
Murder and worshiping false gods - a mortal sin.

http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

They say that venial sins do not have to be confessed to your priest.

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From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en
"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."
Father Echert


One Catholic poster - handed me this -

Note some of the statements made there

"There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."

"the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."

And

"Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

 

Quoting EWTN is "vilifying the RCC"???

There is only so much "condemning other Catholics" that you can do before it starts to erode your own footing in that system.

There is no "purified from sin after death" in either the Bible or in SDA teachings.

There is no "punishment for sin" after death suffered by the saints - in either the Bible or in SDA teaching - just the wicked being punished in the next life..

Then you remain purgatory forever - or never went there to begin with.



"There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."

"the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."

 

More accurately --


"Unless by faith we accept the infinite plan of salvation, we are without divine wisdom. But every one who believes in Christ, every one who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, every one who resists temptations and in the midst of evil strives to copy the pattern given in the Christ-life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

"Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts, including the one relating to the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, the day that He blessed and sanctified, “because that in it He had rested from all His work.” (Genesis 2:3.)
Manuscript Releases, vol. 8 [Nos. 526-663], Page 99


Who will 'reach the condition of sinlessness'? -The answer is only Christians, and only by faith. It does not say "all Christians must reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression before they can enter heaven" or "before they die" .

 

The Review and Herald
September 25, 1900
"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant. There are many who do not see themselves in the light of the law of God. They do not loathe selfishness; therefore they are selfish. Their souls are spotted and defiled. Yet with sin-stained lips they say, “I am holy. Jesus teaches me that the law of God is a yoke of bondage. Those who say that we must keep the law have fallen from grace.”

Christ says, “Blessed are they that do his commandments.” The heavenly benediction is pronounced upon those who keep the law. “They shall have right to the tree of life,” the Saviour declares, “and shall enter in through the gates into the city.”

 

Ellen White's message is about the condition of the saints before they die when it comes to ceasing to be in rebellion against God -- and explains the 'narrow road' of Matt 7 and "Few are on it" - the RCC teaching on purgatory is a door for the "wide road" and deals with fixing the condition of the luke-warm carnal-Christian after they die.

Very different models.

 

so then - care to address the "paradise Purgatory" flaws in the Purgatory doctrine?

If saints are "tormenting themselves in Purgatory" insisting they not leave 'until done' - then what is an Indulgence?

If God is torturing the saints in Purgatory - then how would this ever make them more kind and loving toward God and others?

 

That is the only two choices.

1. Your own EWTN refutes your statement.
2. your own RCC documents describe it as punishment.
3. I gave you the "paradise purgatory" -- option.

Except that God is the author of Purgatory and your own RCC documents say 'punish'.

I provided the "self" option in my post - and also gave it in the "Paradise Purgatory" options.

So then Romans 3 got cut out of the Catholic Bible?

You keep selecting the "Paradise Purgatory" option while denying it.

Your own documents are filled with "Torments" and "punishment" and "fire" for both hell and purgatory.


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HELL explained by the RCC

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

Huge problem.

 

1. I know of not one SDA church that has murdered a child - but if "making stuff up" is your solution ... well then.. No SDA congregation/board/admin/by-law has any control at all over any hospital. At the denomination level the decision was made to have the hospitals run as their own separate entity. No SDA congregation is tasked with hiring or firing or managing the SDA hospital organization. By contrast we have LATERAN IV and the decree to 'exterminate heretics'.

2. Your own EWTN your own RC Encylopedia make this point about torture and flames of hell - punishment in Purgatory - you cannot demonize your own Catholic teaching organization then condemn anyone who quotes it as being a Catholic source.


from - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatorial FIRE
.... In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").

From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en

"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."

Father Echert