Man's relationship to God today

[Darrell C]

1. Infants are born condemned under sin and the proof is death. What I said is that they are "saved" WHEN they die and that statement demands they were in a lost condition or else they do not need to be saved at all.

And what I have consistently said is that the Old Testament Saint was "saved" the same way: by the grace of God. But just like we do not impose a New Covenant standard to the infant that dies, neither can we impose a New Covenant standard of relationship to the Old Testament Saint who died before the New Covenant standard and relationship was established.

Both the infant that dies and the Old Testament Saint that died benefited from the Grace of God. The penalty for their sin is covered by the Cross of Christ, but we do not equate that to those conditions that arose through the establishment of the New Covenant. Again...this is imposing something into the Old Testament that was not there.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

2. Darrell avoids dealing with my posts as they are written containing the Biblical evidence that supports what I said.

The public record shows the hollow charge you present.

You said we are not perfected, I addressed it. Your "declaration" consisted of a footnote Scripture reference, my own presented multiple passages with the Scripture actually posted.

Your "declaration" is in error: we are made perfect in Christ, this is not something we, unlike the Old Testament Saint...await on. It is the Promise realized for both the Old and New Testament Saint.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

a. For example I proved that Job did "KNOW" the "essentials" of the gospel of Christ revealed and it is that very "essential" that Darrell denies they could know.

Nothing in what I said shows your charge to be true: I acknowledge very much Job "knew the essentials," lol, and that we, Biblicist...have a more perfect understanding of what the essentials represented. I detailed some of those in my response.

But if you want to promote foundational teaching as equable to New Testament Revelation, feel free. I would caution you that you have a directive not to lay again that which is foundational, but since you equate salvation throughout Scripture it is clear that caution will be ignored.

There is a difference between "essential" and foundational, my friend, and this is the point the Writer of Hebrews makes in his rebuke of his Hebrew brethren. If we miss that lesson, we will indeed see Job as having an equable understanding and revelation, but that is going to contradict Paul's teachings concerning the Mysteries of God, and in fact nullify his teachings.

That is what you are doing. I am just trying to help you see that.


God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

And what I have consistently said is that the Old Testament Saint was "saved" the same way: by the grace of God.

What you are saying is manifestly false and self-contradictory. You do not believe we are "saved" the "same way" by "the grace of God" and it is simple to prove.

1. We are "saved" in reference to sin by justification, meaning our sins are remitted and righteousness is imputed that is how we are saved in reference to sin. You do not believe we are "saved" in the "same way" and you know it.

2. We are "saved" in reference to spiritual separation from God by regeneration that is how we are "saved." You do not believe we are "saved" in the "same way" and you know it!

3. We are "saved" by "grace" that is justified "without works" that is how we are "saved by grace." You do not believe we are "saved" in the "same way" and you know it as you believe they are saved BY THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS not imputed righteousness of Christ and you believe it is their works that manifest that righteousness by which they are saved. You believe justification is by works not grace for Old Testaments and you have made that clear several times.

But just like we do not impose a New Covenant standard to the infant that dies, neither can we impose a New Covenant standard of relationship to the Old Testament Saint who died before the New Covenant standard and relationship was established.

There is no imposition, there is only way kind of salvation that God provides for fallen man regardless when they live as they have the VERY SAME PROBLEM - sin and spiritual separation from God and there is not other solution to that problem but a substitutionary Savior who died for sin, thus remitting it by his death and the imputed righteousness that satisfies God's Law which is God's own righteousness imputed to the believer through faith in Christ. No other salvation exists. That is why BEFORE the cross Jesus could say "no man" (pre or post) can come to the father but by him. That is why BEFORE the cross Jesus could say there is but ONE WAY (Mt. 7:13-14). That is why AFTER the cross Peter could say that all prophets preached remission of sins through faith in Christ (Acts 10:43).

Infants are regenerated and indwelt at the time of death through manifestation of Christ in their hearts in connection with the gospel before and after the cross.

Job, the oldest book in the Bible repudiates your nonsense. Job proves that the gospel was sufficiently preached to him so that he did UNDERSTAND he was a sinner condemned by God and that he needed to be redeemed from his sins and trusted in the anticipated Christ as "my redeemer" and he believed that Christ was presently alive at the time he trusted in him - "my redeemer LIVETH"

You are wasting my time and the timer of those on this forum by the nonsense you espouse.

 

[Darrell C]

1. We are "saved" in reference to sin by justification

So how is the infant murdered in the womb considered justified? What faith can that child express?

You are charging me with saying men were justified by works, which is false, but, it does demand that your own view promotes justification by faith, so, how can one be saved apart from faith?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

2. We are "saved" in reference to spiritual separation from God by regeneration that is how we are "saved."

And the simple fact is that regeneration is something that happens while one is alive.

How is the infant regenerated?

If you say they are spiritually reborn at death (which I agree with, though that is exclusive to this Age), then you cannot say the infant was "saved" while they yet lived.

Just think about that, Biblicist.

You dismantle your own doctrine. You dismantle your OP.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

3. We are "saved" by "grace" that is justified "without works" that is how we are "saved by grace."

And I have consistently taught that.

But what you are not yet understanding is that the grace of God is not demanded by faith.

The infant has no capacity for faith, and their salvation is realized after they are dead.

That is the same principle that applies to the Old Testament Saint.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

There is no imposition, there is only way kind of salvation that God provides for fallen man regardless when they live as they have the VERY SAME PROBLEM - sin and spiritual separation from God and there is not other solution to that problem but a substitutionary Savior who died for sin, thus remitting it by his death and the imputed righteousness that satisfies God's Law which is God's own righteousness imputed to the believer through faith in Christ

As I have said before...sin is not man's problem, it is simply the result and consequence of the singular problem he has: he is conceived/born separated from God.

It is incorrect to say sin is part of the problem, because we see in the example of the aborted infant...there is no sin which is charged to that infants account.

It is not "God's Law being satisfied" in that scenario.

Consider:


Romans 5:10-13

King James Version (KJV)


10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


So I ask again, what charge do you bring against the infant murdered in the womb?

Man's problem is not sin, that is a symptom of the problem, and according to the severity of those symptoms will his judgment be based.

Man's problem is separation from God, which is the state of the infant when conceived, yet you are saying they are "saved" when they die.

Now, were they "saved" while they yet lived?

Were they reconciled when they yet lived?

The OP is dismantled.


God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

So how is the infant murdered in the womb considered justified? What faith can that child express?

You are charging me with saying men were justified by works, which is false, but, it does demand that your own view promotes justification by faith, so, how can one be saved apart from faith?


God bless.

If you would have read carefully what I said, you would not be asking this question. I gave John the Baptist as an example of what God can do in the womb with an infant. John heard the gospel and "leaped for joy" and was "filled' with the Spirit from the womb. Who says that God cannot save an infant, meaning enlightening the infant in the truth of the gospel at the point of death? John the Baptist leaped "for joy" and joy is the response of an understanding mind. Salvation is REVELATION within the heart (2 Cor. 4:6) regardless of age and it is God's power that makes it understandable.

 

[The Biblicist]

And the simple fact is that regeneration is something that happens while one is alive.

How is the infant regenerated?

If you say they are spiritually reborn at death (which I agree with, though that is exclusive to this Age), then you cannot say the infant was "saved" while they yet lived.

Just think about that, Biblicist.

You dismantle your own doctrine. You dismantle your OP.


God bless.

If you understood the Biblical doctrine of regeneration you would not be asking these questions or challenging my position. You obviously have no clue. Spiritual separation is separation from the LIFE of God, the LIGHT of God and the HOLINESS of God. Regeneration is spiritual reunion with God, with his LIFE (thus "quickening" - Eph. 2:1,5); with his LIGHT (thus "light of knowledge" - 2 Cor. 4:6) with HOLINESS (thus "created in righteousness and true holiness" and this is a creative act "in Christ" (Eph. 2:10). Faith requires enlightenment or knowledge of God through Jesus Christ (Jn. 17:3; 2 Cor. 4:6) and that created "light of knowledge" within man is the substance of justifying faith, thus regenerative faith. Man cannot believe by the outward "ear" alone but there must be DIVINE REVELATION within man that gives him eyes to see and ears to hear.

Peter had this divine revelation BEFORE the cross (Mt. 16:17) thus regenerated before the cross. Justification by faith is IMPOSSIBLE apart divine internal "light of knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ" as Christ is "Jesus" of the Old Testament or "Jehovah our Savior." If you don't understand the abc's of regeneration or regenerative faith no wonder you don't understand the essentials of salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

As I have said before...sin is not man's problem, it is simply the result and consequence of the singular problem he has: he is conceived/born separated from God.

You are simply wrong! Sin is the problem and spiritual separation when conceived is the consequence. Sin brings death not death brings sin and death is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION. You need to learn the abc's again, that is if you have ever been taught the abc's of the fall and consequences of sin. The wages of SIN is death not the wages of death (spiritual separation) is sin! You have it backwards and your faulting intepretation of Romans 5:10-13 demonstrates your have it backwards.

BTW if you had continued to verse 14 you would have answered your own argument.

It is incorrect to say sin is part of the problem, because we see in the example of the aborted infant...there is no sin which is charged to that infants account.

We are all born into this world as infants Darrell and as sinners condemned "already" because the whole human nature existed and acted "in Adam" and when he sinned, the whole human race sinned and that is why infants don't need to be aborted in the womb to die, they can die of many of the same causes that adults die - "the wages of sin IS DEATH" not vice versa!! Paul says we have "ALL" sinned, not just adults?

Verses 13-14 prove that the death of infants and others who have no personal ability to discern right or wrong IN THEIR OWN LIFE TIME is due to their union with Adam and his act of sin in Genesis 2:17.

Genesis 2:17 is the universal law broken by all mankind "in Adam." There is no other universal law that could have been broken to cause death between Adam and Moses as the Law of Moses had not yet been given.

The law of conscience does not explain the death of all between Adam and Moses, because infants cannot violate that law as they have no ability to discern conscience and so that does not explain their subjection to death. The only law that explains the death concerning those who did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression, which was a WILLFUL KNOWING ACT of sin, is that the whole human nature acted when Adam acted.

Romans 5:15-19 proves this to be the case. Paul did not say it was by "many sins" that many die or many are condemned (which is your position) but by "ONE MAN"S SIN" many were made sinners, many were condemned because the whole human race existed in that one man and acted when that one man acted.

Like I said, you don't understand the basics of sin and spiritual death and therefore can't understand the basics of salvation (regeneration and justification).

 

[The Biblicist]

And I have consistently taught that.

But what you are not yet understanding is that the grace of God is not demanded by faith.

The infant has no capacity for faith, and their salvation is realized after they are dead.

That is the same principle that applies to the Old Testament Saint.


God bless.

No human being has the capacity for faith as that is why Christ said "NO MAN can come to me" without divine intervention. If God can cause John the Baptist in the womb to understand the good news of Christ's birth so that he jumps for joy, then how can you say God cannot REVEAL within the infant the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6) at the moment of death???? Regeneration is in part a REVELATION within (2 Cor. 4:6; Mt. 16:17).

 

[The Biblicist]

Sin is the cause (Gen. 2:17) and spiritual separation (death) is the consequence. Spiritual separation is separation from God or to be without God. All human beings born into this world are "without God." Regeneration is bringing separated man without God into spiritual union with God. It is just that simple.

The separated state is a DEAD state without the LIFE of God. The separated state is a DARK state without the LIGHT of God. The separated state is a DEPRAVED state without the LIGHT of God.

Spiritual union is a creative act of God that involves three positive and three negatives:

1. It is QUICKENING or making ALIVE (positive) thus removing spiritual death (negative).
2. It is ENLIGHTENING by inward REVELATION or knowing God in the person of Jesus Christ - Jn. 17:3; Mt. 16:17(positive) thus removing darkness.
3. It is being made RIGHTEOUS in spirit (Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24; Jn. 3:6) thus an inward "washing...and renewing" man in the "image of God" (Tit. 3:5).

It is the ENLIGHTENING by direct inward revelation (2 Cor. 4:6) that creates the "substance" of faith as well as furnishes the "hope" of faith. Thus true saving or justifying faith is regenerative faith or faith created within man by direct revelation.

Whether we are speaking about Abel or Darrell it makes no difference, the PROBLEM IS THE SAME and it is UNIVERSAL (sin and spiritual separation "in Adam") and there is but only one SOLUTION and it is for all the elect "in Christ." There is no kind of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at anytime.

PROOF - Abraham is the father or role model with regard to justification by faith "FOR ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" and he was "in Christ" 430 years prior to Moses:

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. - Gal. 3:17

New birth was as necessary then as now - PROOF -

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. - Gal. 4:27

 

[Darrell C]

You are simply wrong! Sin is the problem and spiritual separation when conceived is the consequence.

That does not mean that sin is attributed to the infant that dies in the womb.

So what sin does that infant have laid to their charge?

While it is true Adam's sin led to their being separated from God, that is not personal sin they are charged with.

Despite not having sinned, the infant is still separated.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Sin brings death not death brings sin and death is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION.

Physical death is not an issue here. While the infant remains alive...they are still separated, not having committed the first sin.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The wages of SIN is death not the wages of death (spiritual separation) is sin!

So what sin does the infant commit that they deserve death?

None whatsoever, and yet...they are still separated from God.

And your premise is that no one that is separated from God can be saved.

That is the bottom line.

The truth of the matter, which you know to be true, is that one separated from God can be saved, and whether you try to past or present tense yourself in denying that the fact remains there are those who are saved ho, while yet alive...

...were separated from God.

The OP is dismantled. You did it...not me.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Sin is the cause (Gen. 2:17) and spiritual separation (death) is the consequence.

The first is in error in a context of Post-Fall conditions. The latter is correct in both.

One does not have to sin in order to be separated from God in a Post-Fall conditions.

Separation remains the constant, sin does not. The infant that dies is not charged with sin, yet they are still separated.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The separated state is a DEPRAVED state without the LIGHT of God.

Could you give me an example of the depraved infant and the sin they commit? Perhaps making mom sick? Kicking her? Not arriving on time?




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Whether we are speaking about Abel or Darrell it makes no difference,

There is a huge difference: Abel offered up sacrifice for his sin...Darrell knows he cannot. The very provision is, in this Age...

...forbidden. This would be to crucify Christ unto myself again.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

No human being has the capacity for faith as that is why Christ said "NO MAN can come to me" without divine intervention.

So God intervenes in the womb and the infant receives the revelation of God and then has faith?


God bless.