What is the Baptism With the Holy Ghost?

[Darrell C]

Okay, another simple question that demands a not so simple answer. Please refrain from responding to the Poll with "None of the above" unless you include a poll addition with it (something you feel you could choose if it were on the Poll).

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Well, I guess this proves I am right: no-one in "Other Denominations" has any idea what the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is.




God bless.

 

[utilyan]

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5


Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[Darrell C]

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5


Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Didn't know you had replied to this because you did not quote me, which gives me an alert so I can respond.

So you believe water baptism is the "gateway to life in the Spirit," do I have that correct?

Have to get going, so will check back in at a later time.

Don't be lazy...quote.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And I welcome all Catholics to also join in on this.

Very surprised no Charismatics have stepped up. This is usually a hot topic for them.


God bless.

 

[plain_n_simple]

And I welcome all Catholics to also join in on this.

Very surprised no Charismatics have stepped up. This is usually a hot topic for them.


God bless.

Upon repentance and believing that Jesus is Savior, we are saved. We become disciples, followers, babes in Christ. The Holy Spirit is in us. The baptism of the Holy Spirit gives the power of the Spirit, to carry on the work. The gospel does not come in words alone but also in demonstration, heal the sick, raise the dead. This baptism also opens the door to receiving the 9 gifts, which without, leaves the believer and churches powerless. For example those who reject the gifts resort to lesser man-made remedies such as psychology and drugs to treat demons in the unbeliever. After this baptism, the believer will begin to pray in tongues with great results in their life and edification. I might note that if a believer does not receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they are still saved and will be with Jesus at the soon coming rapture.

 

[Smyth]

After this baptism, the believer will begin to pray in tongues with great results in their life and edification. I might note that if a believer does not receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they are still saved and will be with Jesus at the soon coming rapture.

The list of quintessential Baptist doctrine is short:
1) Baptism by submersion.
2) Believers baptism.
3) The modern Pentecostal practice of tongues isn't biblical.

I think one more thing should be added to that list:
4) The Rapture is not coming soon.

 

[Darrell C]

Upon repentance and believing that Jesus is Savior, we are saved. We become disciples, followers, babes in Christ. The Holy Spirit is in us. The baptism of the Holy Spirit gives the power of the Spirit, to carry on the work. The gospel does not come in words alone but also in demonstration, heal the sick, raise the dead. This baptism also opens the door to receiving the 9 gifts, which without, leaves the believer and churches powerless. For example those who reject the gifts resort to lesser man-made remedies such as psychology and drugs to treat demons in the unbeliever. After this baptism, the believer will begin to pray in tongues with great results in their life and edification. I might note that if a believer does not receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they are still saved and will be with Jesus at the soon coming rapture.

Okay, so you are saying the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is an empowering, do I have that right? You are not alone in this, many, if not most, whether Protestant, Reformed, Catholic, or Charismatic take this same view.

And I am pressed for time this morning so I will have to come back to this, but, I appreciate you participating.

So what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is that one can be saved but not have received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, right?

Now, I would ask you to present the Scriptural basis for this. Please present the Scriptures that affirm your position/s, and I will present my own which I believe affirms my own position that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvation itself in the New Covenant standard which began at Pentecost.

Before I do, though, I will ask you this: if the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which did not take place until after the Promised Spirit came (Acts 1:4-5), is an empowering to heal, then how is it that the Disciples performed this function (as well as cast out demons) prior to their being Baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Acts 1:4-5 makes it clear that they were not yet Baptized with the Holy Ghost, so how would you reconcile this as an empowerment?

Again, thanks for the participation.And by the way, we are in agreement with demon possession being treated with meds due to unbelief.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The list of quintessential Baptist doctrine is short:
1) Baptism by submersion.
2) Believers baptism.
3) The modern Pentecostal practice of tongues isn't biblical.

I am a Baptist and I distinguish between Believer's Baptism and the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, as do many Baptists in Fundamental circles.

Let's not turn this into a debate about Charismatic Distinctives (though the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a Distinctive of Charismatics, lol), our focus is specific to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, rather than the Gifts. Let's focus on, as it has been offered, the Distinctive (singular) of Charismatic doctrine concerning the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. I have been surprised at the similarity of their view to many Baptists I have discussed this with. Several Baptists, as well as some Reformed and Protestant believers, have affirmed their view that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is an empowering. One well known Partial Preterist I talked to also gave this definition.

So what is your understanding of this Baptism?

I think one more thing should be added to that list:
4) The Rapture is not coming soon.

We simply cannot say that dogmatically. There is nothing that needs to be accomplished for the Rapture to take place.

Again, our focus is on the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, so let's first concentrate on that, and while I don't have a problem with side issues being discussed, we likely have only about 9 pages before Moderation shuts the thread down, so let's stick with the topic.

If you would like to discuss the Rapture and the various positions (Pre, Mid, Post), I'd be happy to discuss it with you. Start a thread and I will participate. If you feel the Rapture will not occur soon because you are Post-Tribulation in your views, that is a great discussion which covers quite a bit of ground. I have noticed there isn't much discussion on that anymore, so again, I'd be glad to discuss it with you in an appropriate thread.

Thanks for participating in this one, and I would be curious to know your position on the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5


Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Where'd you go, Utilyan? We agree in part concerning this Baptism, but, I fully reject Baptismal Regeneration, so you having brought that to the table gives us the opportunity to examine it.


God bless.

 

[Smyth]

So what is your understanding of this Baptism?

All believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. In the Bible, the only use of the phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is in a contrast to John's baptism, which is pre-Christian. That is, the baptism in the Holy spirit distinguishes Christians from non-Christians.

If you feel the Rapture will not occur soon because you are Post-Tribulation in your views, that is a great discussion which covers quite a bit of ground.

I'm not pre/mid/post. But, Jesus taught that the Elect would suffer through the Tribulation.

 

[Darrell C]

All believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. In the Bible, the only use of the phrase "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is in a contrast to John's baptism, which is pre-Christian. That is, the baptism in the Holy spirit distinguishes Christians from non-Christians.

I agree, so the questions I pose to you are...

1. Was the Baptism with the Holy Ghost taking place prior to Pentecost?

2. Does one become a Christian by being water baptized?

3. Who is the Baptizer?

4. What is one baptized into?


And have to run, so again, thanks for participating. This is a great discussion, and will cause us to think about some things we may not have given attention to before.

From you second statement I take it you are A-Millennial? Either way, not really relevant to the topic.


God bless.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Okay, so you are saying the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is an empowering, do I have that right?

So what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is that one can be saved but not have received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, right?.

Correct. In Acts 19, Paul meets some disciples. They believe on Jesus. They are believers, saved, attained salvation. They have not heard of the Holy Ghost. Paul baptizes them in the Holy Ghost.

As to your point in Acts 1, Jesus had been with them. Previously He gave authority and sent out the 72 with power to heal. They still had that authority.The Spirit came at Pentecost to establish the church, with power to do the works Jesus did, as in Mark 16..."they will heal the sick, cast out demons..."

 

[Smyth]

Correct. In Acts 19, Paul meets some disciples. They believe on Jesus. They are believers, saved, attained salvation. They have not heard of the Holy Ghost. Paul baptizes them in the Holy Ghost.

Wrong! Your claim that the people Paul met in Ephesus in Acts 19 were Christians is a contradiction of the Bible.

Paul asks the men he met, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” Notice the connection between the Holy Spirit and being Believers. The men replied that they hadn't heard of the Holy Spirt. Right there, Paul realizes they aren't Christians.

Upon realizing the men weren't Christians, Paul wants to find out what they are, so he asks "Into what then were you baptized?" The men replied, "Into John's baptism." See, they were John's disciples, not Jesus's disciples. They had never heard of Jesus.

Paul then tells, them about Jesus, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” Then they received Believers Baptism in the name of Jesus.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Wrong! Your claim that the people Paul met in Ephesus in Acts 19 were Christians is a contradiction of the Bible.

Paul asks the men he met, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” Notice the connection between the Holy Spirit and being Believers. The men replied that they hadn't heard of the Holy Spirt. Right there, Paul realizes they aren't Christians.

Upon realizing the men weren't Christians, Paul wants to find out what they are, so he asks "Into what then were you baptized?" The men replied, "Into John's baptism." See, they were John's disciples, not Jesus's disciples. They had never heard of Jesus.

Paul then tells, them about Jesus, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” Then they received Believers Baptism in the name of Jesus.

"4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." They were disciples who believed on the one who came after John...Jesus. John taught nothing else to believe on, Jesus. John always spoke of the one coming after him, unless you think John was a false prophet. Notice Paul does not ask them if they ever heard of Jesus. He went directly to the Holy Ghost question. It was obvious to Paul that they were Christians. Please don't lessen John's ministry as if what he did was worthless, he was a great prophet.
Did you receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues when you were water baptized? No you did not. You were simply baptized to salvation. You have not received this baptism and that's okay. You are still saved but you cannot pray in the Spirit, which is very beneficial for others, and for your own edification. Let's not waste this thread on these basic things God gave us. You do not believe and you don't want it, I get it. The OP is "What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit", not if you believe it or not.

 

[Smyth]

"4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." They were disciples who believed on the one who came after John...Jesus. John taught nothing else to believe on, Jesus. John always spoke of the one coming after him, unless you think John was a false prophet.

John wasn't a false prophet, but Pentecostals are false teachers. Someone who knew only the baptism of John was not a Christian. John the Baptist came before Jesus. His disciples knew of the coming Christ, but they didn't know Jesus. By not having the Holy Spirit, Paul knew they hadn't been baptized in Jesus' name.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues when you were water baptized? No you did not.

The Pentecostal practice of rambling off a random string of simple English phonemes is not speaking in tongues. It's just clowning around.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is being sealed in the Spirit when we are Saved.

 

[plain_n_simple]

......And by the way, we are in agreement with demon possession being treated with meds due to unbelief.


God bless.

And psychology would be a whole other thread. I think I would title it "Taking Counsel From The Ungodly". But that is another story.

 

[Darrell C]

Correct. In Acts 19, Paul meets some disciples. They believe on Jesus. They are believers, saved, attained salvation. They have not heard of the Holy Ghost. Paul baptizes them in the Holy Ghost.

Why would we consider them to "believe on Jesus" when they have not heard of the Spirit Jesus preached, Who was sent on Pentecost, and not before that?

They had not even heard of this Spirit.

Secondly, the disciples heard of the Spirit, as Christ states in Acts 1:4, both by the Father as promised as well as from Christ Himself.

Now what Spirit did Christ teach them about, and why is He different than the Spirit empowering them as disciples of Christ to heal, preach, and cast out demons?

If the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is simply an empowering, then nothing new is seen in Christ sending the Comforter. But that is not what Scripture teaches, we see that when the Spirit is sent, many things that did not take place before began taking place.

Here is an example:


John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Now here is a simple question: had the Comforter, Christ, and the Father...made their abode already in the disciples?

Yes or no?

If yes...how?

If no..why?

As to your point in Acts 1, Jesus had been with them. Previously He gave authority and sent out the 72 with power to heal. They still had that authority.The Spirit came at Pentecost to establish the church, with power to do the works Jesus did, as in Mark 16..."they will heal the sick, cast out demons..."

Okay, so the one point I would focus on in your statement begs the question...was the Church in existence prior to Pentecost?

Secondly...what does it mean to be a member of the Church?

And psychology would be a whole other thread. I think I would title it "Taking Counsel From The Ungodly". But that is another story.

I call it psycho-babble, lol. It is a system of generating secular humanistic excuses with an underlying goal of undermining belief in the supernatural.

"It's not Johnny's fault...he had a poor upbringing, and didn't receive the attention he should have! We just need to get him on the right psych med and Johnny will be just fine."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

John wasn't a false prophet, but Pentecostals are false teachers. Someone who knew only the baptism of John was not a Christian. John the Baptist came before Jesus. His disciples knew of the coming Christ, but they didn't know Jesus. By not having the Holy Spirit, Paul knew they hadn't been baptized in Jesus' name.



The Pentecostal practice of rambling off a random string of simple English phonemes is not speaking in tongues. It's just clowning around.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is being sealed in the Spirit when we are Saved.

Smyth, this is not a thread to bash Charismatics or Pentecostals, and it is not a thread with a focus on the Gifts.

Let's stick with the focus...the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.


I agree that the disciples of John are saved in Acts 19, before only being baptized in association with John. How this is relevant is how being baptized in association correlates to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Many equate the two, I do not.

If they are at this time Baptized with the Holy Ghost, then they are at this time saved.

Consider:


Acts 11:13-18

King James Version (KJV)


13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


John the Baptist did not grant repentance unto life, but rather, publicly baptized men who professed repentance and this...within the framework of the Law, not the New Covenant.

Here, just as Christ did, and Paul does in Acts 19, salvation and life is correlated to these individuals being Baptized with the Holy Ghost.


God bless.

 

[Smyth]

I agree that the disciples of John are saved in Acts 19, before only being baptized in association with John. How this is relevant is how being baptized in association correlates to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Many equate the two, I do not.

The word "baptism" is never associated with anything after salvation. The previous post claiming a post salvation baptism in Acts 19 is completely false. The concept of a post-salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit makes no sense, given that there is only one baptism and we are sealed in the Holy Spirit in salvation.

This is not a difficult area where verses can seemly be found on both sides of the issue. Because verses cannot be found to support post-salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit, Pentecostals are forced to brazenly misrepresent verses, such as we saw done in Acts 19.