What is the Baptism With the Holy Ghost?

[plain_n_simple]

The word "baptism" is never associated with anything after salvation. The previous post claiming a post salvation baptism in Acts 19 is completely false. The concept of a post-salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit makes no sense, given that there is only one baptism and we are sealed in the Holy Spirit in salvation.

This is not a difficult area where verses can seemly be found on both sides of the issue. Because verses cannot be found to support post-salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit, Pentecostals are forced to brazenly misrepresent verses, such as we saw done in Acts 19.

Without the evidence of tongues, you have not been baptized unto the Holy Spirit. If it is as you say, you would of spoke when you were first water baptized. You have the seed of the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells in you, but you have not the power that comes with baptism of the Spirit. There is always power for healing and casting out devils when this baptism comes. You need milk. The great thing is you are still saved as a babe in Christ needing instruction and experience in your walk. Otherwise you would testify of doing the works Jesus did, which you have not. You can "say" you have it, but have no proofs, only words. The preaching of the Gospel comes NOT IN WORD ALONE, BUT ALWAYS comes with power, demonstration. I'll end with that because this thread will become useless with your misunderstanding of the operation of the Holy Ghost. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[utilyan]

Where'd you go, Utilyan? We agree in part concerning this Baptism, but, I fully reject Baptismal Regeneration, so you having brought that to the table gives us the opportunity to examine it.


God bless.

Be sure to explain what part we agree on, Because that tiny piece may be a Regeneration.

Being baptized we are one body with Christ. If being baptized into one body thus drinking of Holy Spirit wasn't an improvement of any kind I'd agree easily to no regeneration occuring.

You can have a house with 100 broken windows. If you fix one window it has "regenerated"

A regeneration takes place.

Regeneration pretty broad thing, If you were to speak to non-Christians who have no knowledge of Jesus, You would be regenerating them or if you want to get humble, Christ would be regenerating their knowledge of God through you.


Getting baptized is not the only absolute way to be saved, God can do what he wants, God can save you for no reason.

Getting baptized is a definite ticket to being saved.


1 Corinthians 12
12For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20But now there are many members, but one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.


John 3:5
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Jesus tells us we must be baptized.

Later in the chapter:

22After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.

You ought to ask yourself.....WHY is Jesus, GOD ALMIGHTY, baptizing people for!? If baptism does nothing, GOD baptizing people tops all absurdity.

If you were a soul who wanted to be damned rather then saved, Getting baptized is a good way to mess that plan up.

 

[Darrell C]

The word "baptism" is never associated with anything after salvation. The previous post claiming a post salvation baptism in Acts 19 is completely false. The concept of a post-salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit makes no sense, given that there is only one baptism and we are sealed in the Holy Spirit in salvation.

I agree with all of this. However, if we believe this, and we challenge the beliefs of others, then we must address it from a Doctrinal approach. We look at the reasons why would would view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as taking place at salvation.

And it seems fairly clear to some of us, but keep in mind that many have sat under teaching for years being taught something different, and its hard for someone to think that what their leadership has taught them, or even what they have concluded might be in error. This implies that God has not been leading them, and most will reject that notion.

But it is my belief that God will allow people to learn what is wrong because sometimes one has to know what is wrong before they can truly appreciate what is right.

This is not a difficult area where verses can seemly be found on both sides of the issue. Because verses cannot be found to support post-salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit, Pentecostals are forced to brazenly misrepresent verses, such as we saw done in Acts 19.

And I agree with that also. I think many take an approach that allows for two differing issues to be both acceptable. But it's my view that there is an intent to be found on every issue and it is our job to find it, then see how it might have differing application, such as Prophecy having at times multiple applications (i.e., Christ coming, Kingdom establishment, et cetera).

Better, though, to seek to discuss the issue, and give our antagonists the opportunity at least to show how we are wrong. Doctrinal Discussion, rather than assuming the higher ground and talking at people.

It's not a difficult issue for some, but, difficulty is going to arise when we are told what we believe is wrong. And I think most Charismatics/Pentecostals are very sincere in their beliefs, and some of their distinctives, while we would view them in error, doesn't nullify a sincere salvation or love for God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Without the evidence of tongues, you have not been baptized unto the Holy Spirit.

We have a record of people being Baptized with the Holy Ghost where we see them speak in languages, yet the languages are known languages:

Acts 2

King James Version (KJV)


4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.


So wouldn't we assume that every occurrence of those who were filled with the Holy Ghost would have the same gift taking place?

But, we have much to look at concerning these issues, because I will suggest to you that in view is the filling, whereas the receiving of the Promised Spirit takes place in the house where they were gathered. The "filling" with the Holy Ghost is not the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, but is the empowering of the Spirit in believers that they might minister.

And as I pointed out, the Holy Spirit has always empowered men of God for ministry.

If it is as you say, you would of spoke when you were first water baptized.

Okay, so you believe that we receive the Eternal Indwelling of God when we are water baptized? If you could clarify your position, that would help. If this is the case, perhaps you could give the Biblical Basis for that belief. Many believe in Baptismal Regeneration, Charismatics, Catholics, and even some among Protestants. While that might seem unrelated it is not, and is just one issue that has to be looked at when we consider what the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is.

You have the seed of the Spirit,

No, when you are saved, the Holy Ghost, as well as the Father, and the Son...take up residence within you. At the same time, it is also true that you are placed in God:



John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)


15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


In view is something not taking place at the time of the teaching: the Eternal Indwelling (V.16) of God, which is contrasted with the Lord standing in the role of Comforter (He is the "Consolation of Israel") and leaving (returning to Heaven). "Another Comforter" will be sent to replace Himself when His Ministry ends on earth. The disciples know the Spirit of God, for He was with them, but, Christ distinguishes, He shall (in that future day) be in them.

We then see that Christ promises to come to them personally.

He goes on to say...



John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


This is salvation. We in Him, He in us.

That is what takes place when one is Baptized with the Holy Ghost. They are "immersed into God."

As I said before, we see men empowered for ministry prior to the Promised Spirit being sent. The disciples cast out demons, healed, preached the Kingdom Gospel, and even felt they had power to call down fire on men, as we see in an empowered Prophet in the Old Testament. So to make the Baptism with the Holy Ghost an empowerment fails to distinguish what is said when the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is specifically mentioned.

The first mention of this is by John the Baptist:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


I have color coded this, the blue representing John speaking about salvation through Christ, the red representing eternal judgment. Many Charismatics/Pentecostals view this as a singular consequence of Christ's baptizing men with the Holy Ghost, that believers are baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire, but, John defines what he states, and the fire in view is tied to the burning up of the chaff, which is familiar teaching we see Christ repeat often in His teaching.

So I present this first mention of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and open it up for discussion.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

and the Spirit dwells in you,

And we have to be certain we understand what the Spirit dwelling in us means.

And we can't have the Spirit of God divided into portions, meaning that we get some of the Holy Ghost when we are saved, and that there is a subsequent event in which we receive more of the Holy Ghost. I think one illustrated it best by using a glass being submerged in water, which aptly distinguishes between ourselves being placed into God and God "filling us." We are all, at salvation, placed into God, but, that does not mean we are all filled with the Spirit of God, which speaks of that very empowering. This filling took place in Old Testament Economies, and we see this in the Prophets (i.e., Moses, Elijah, David, et cetera).

So one of the things we can discuss is whether my view is correct, when I distinguish between the salvific event of a believer being placed into God at salvation and receiving God Himself, and that same believer being filled, empowered...to minister.

I will point out what Christ states will happen after they receive the Promised Spirit that will come after He returns to Heaven:


Acts 1:4-5; Acts 1:8

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



Two different results, they will receive the Spirit, and when that happens, they will be empowered to minister.

Now, just one more thing to keep in mind when you consider this, PaS...it is not until they receive the Promised Spirit that they begin preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Until that time, they have, since Christ died and arose...been out of commission. Secondly, when we understand that the disciples did not even believe Christ had arose from the dead until He appeared to them and showed them that He had, we understand that the disciples, when empowered by the Spirit under Christ's Ministry, were performing a ministry altogether different in regards to the revelation of the Gospel Mystery.

Lastly, and I hope we can make this a side issue for the time (though I will pursue this discussion any way you choose, that is your choice), when the disciples are Baptized with the Holy Ghost, receiving the Spirit God and Christ promised to send, they preach the Gospel in known languages, astounding the many various groups from other countries that speak in their native tongues.

So when we speak of the Spirit of God dwelling in us, we are not speaking about the filling, or the differing of degrees of God's ministry through a believer, but we speak of that promise of God...


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


So unless we carefully distinguish between the empowering of God, which has taken place all throughout Redemptive History, and the fulfillment of God's Promise in regards to the sending of the Spirit in this distinct Age (which is something Charismatics usually also distinguish), we can come under the impression that these are the same things, and they are not.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

but you have not the power that comes with baptism of the Spirit.

And I understand your perspective, PaS, it is a familiar teaching to me.

However, as I mentioned in a previous post, Peter does not even mention speaking in tongues, or the display of spiritual gifts, when he recounts Cornelius' conversion. What he states is that they were saved, and granted repentance unto life. He ties this directly to being Baptized with the Holy Ghost.

If this were an empowering, he would not be speaking about the fact they were saved and granted life, but would have spoken about the display of gifts. So we have to let Scripture define the Baptism with the Holy Ghost:


Acts 11:13-18

King James Version (KJV)


13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



Not a word about speaking in tongues, nor any other spiritual gift, only direct correlation of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost to salvation, the Gift, not gifts, for those who believed on Christ...God granted repentance unto life. Peter preached unto these Judaizers the Gospel of Christ, these are the words by which they were saved.

And Peter contrasts, as John did, the Baptism of John (which was a baptism unto repentance, whereby those professing repentance publicly declared their repentance) with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Again...no mention of gifts, only The Gift og God, salvation.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

There is always power for healing and casting out devils when this baptism comes.

There is actually this same power provided to every believer, but, it is through being filled with the Holy Ghost that this power manifests.

Here is an example of someone Baptized with the Holy Ghost being filled:


Acts 4:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;


Now think back to what the Lord told the disciples in the First Chapter of Acts: you will be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. They were Baptized with the Holy Ghost, and received power to be witnesses of Christ after that they had received Him (the Holy Spirit).

Again remember that Peter had prior to the coming of the Comforter, the Promised Spirit, been empowered to preach, heal, cast out demons...and the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is, according to Christ, the reception of the Promised Spirit. It is not an event that took place prior to Pentecost, but, we know empowerment had, so the two are not the same thing. This would nullify every teaching of the Prophets and Christ concerning the coming of the Promised Spirit.

So here, we see that Peter is filled with the Holy Ghost, and it makes little sense to make this a salvific experience, it is clearly what Christ said would happen when they received the Holy Ghost. The difference, PaS, is this...

...Peter was empowered under Christ to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom (which was according to the Law, under Law, and specific to Israel and the Promises of God to her), but when the Promised Spirit came and he was Baptized with the Holy Ghost, he immediately begins preaching the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Have you ever considered this...


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)


5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


...in that context?

He says that here too...


Matthew 15:23-25

King James Version (KJV)


23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Two different periods of revelation, two different dispensations. Israel understood the Gospel as revealed from a carnal (worldly) perspective.

With that in mind, take a look at what the disciples ask when the Lord tells them they will be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence:


Acts 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Their understanding is still according to the revelation that had been given them, which resulted in the belief that Christ would establish a physical Kingdom, restoring physical Israel to her former glory. He will do that (in the Millennial Kingdom, which is established immediately after Christ's Return at the end of the Tribulation), but that was not His purpose in His First Coming.

His first coming dealt with man's great need, the remedy for his separation from God. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, through the Work of Christ. But, that was not revealed unto men in past Ages, that is why it is called a Mystery, the Hidden Wisdom of God.

Again, the point is that the Spirit of God, promised in the Old Testament, is sent only after Christ returns to Heaven and sends Him. This is the Comforter He taught them about, which they had heard of Him. This is the promise of the Father in Acts 1:4.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You need milk.

And it is the indwelling Spirit of God that uses that milk to enlighten babes in Christ.

He is our Teacher.

The great thing is you are still saved as a babe in Christ needing instruction and experience in your walk.

This establishes two classes of Christ, those who are just saved, and those who have been empowered. But both have the indwelling Spirit of God in equal manner.

Salvation is equally granted in full measure to those that believe on Christ, the Spirit is not divided up and given in increments. This trespasses into making the Spirit of God a force, rather than the Person of God.

And we are filled with the Holy Ghost in the same manner that Old Testament Saints were, the difference being that, as Christ clarifies in John 14:16, is that we are not just filled with the Holy Ghost for empowerment as they were, but we are Baptized in Christ.

Were the disciples in Christ when He taught of the coming of the Spirit?

We know they were not, because Christ teaches this as a future event that will take place after He returns to Heaven from whence He came.

We see that here:


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)


38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


"Rivers of living water" shall flow out of the bellies of those that believe on Christ. This is speaking of what would take place after the Lord was glorified, and John makes it clear that the Holy Ghost was not given yet.

The "rivers of living water " speak of eternal life, contrasted with physical water even as Christ contrasts the True bread with the physical bread which was the provision of sustenance of life (physical) in the Wilderness for Israel.

Again, we are not going to get around the simple truth that men have been empowered by God for ministry throughout Scripture, and that the Holy Ghost being given is an entirely different matter altogether. It is not empowering, it is the immersion of those who believe on the Risen Savior into God, as Christ taught would happen in John 14.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Otherwise you would testify of doing the works Jesus did, which you have not.

And what is the Work of Christ?

It has the singular focus of Redemption and this through believing on Him.

While certain gifts may seem attractive, nothing stands above the gifts that allow men to handle the Word of God that men might be led to Christ.

You can "say" you have it, but have no proofs, only words.

Would you say that everyone "speaking in tongues" these days illustrate an example of God's intentions for our lives?

Is it not Paul's teaching that the words we convey should be understood?

The preaching of the Gospel comes NOT IN WORD ALONE, BUT ALWAYS comes with power, demonstration.

And manifestation of the power of God is evidenced by...salvation of men.

Not in witnessing the gifts themselves.

When the disciples spoke in languages, they were preaching the Gospel of Christ, and those that heard marveled at the gift, but the gift demonstrated the power of God.

And many were saved. That is the purpose of God giving us gifts of the Spirit.


Romans 1:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


But as I said, this thread is not about gifts, but the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, so if we could center on that first, and leave the gifts for another discussion that would be appreciated.

I'll end with that because this thread will become useless with your misunderstanding of the operation of the Holy Ghost. Thanks and God Bless.

That is unfortunate, as you are one of the few that have stepped up to discuss it.

Can I just point out, PaS, that you are not actually centering on the focus of the topic, if you leave the discussion because your view of speaking in tongues is rejected?

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is an important topic, and I will goad you a little, and ask you...

...are you worried you might find out that your view is wrong? Not trying to offend, just challenge you to look at this issue and challenge your own understanding, and to attempt to challenge those who take a differing view than you do. That is what we are here for, brother. To discuss and debate Doctrine. Doesn't mean, becaue we have opposing views, that we can't be friends. I do not question the salvation of those who take differing views from myself, just their doctrine.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Be sure to explain what part we agree on, Because that tiny piece may be a Regeneration.

Sure, but, whether one is regenerated at the time of water baptism is where I suspect we will disagree.

And sorry, Utilyan, I ask you to participate and I get caught up in other threads and don't get to you participation, lol. You will be the first one I respond to when I get back.


God bless.

 

[utilyan]

There is only one Baptism. There isn't one fancier baptism vs another. There is only ONE baptism.
Ephesians 4
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.



1 peter 3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.



baptism now saves you— Baptism isn't something divided from Christ. There is a connection between Christ died for sins for ALL, bringing us to GOD, Comparison of us spiritually saved as Noah was through the water of BAPTISM.


Even the Phrase "BAPTISM now saves you"

Say it! Say baptism now saves us with an AMEN!


The Apostle said it. That phrase would never come out your mouth. We say it all the time.

Clearly Peter is one of us.

What exactly was meant is exactly what is said. A BIBLE believing Christian has no problem with this.

Doesn't have to RE-write everything BACKWARDS, doesn't have to make up RULES that are not even written down.

I invite you to believe what the bible actually says.

 

[Darrell C]

Be sure to explain what part we agree on, Because that tiny piece may be a Regeneration.

We would have to decide how we are regenerated in order to understand if we agree or not, and from what you say here, we certainly do not agree, because I view water baptism as separate from being Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is...being born of God.

The eternal indwelling of God is why we are born again, born of God, born from above, and regenerated. That is why we are "new creatures."

Being baptized we are one body with Christ. If being baptized into one body thus drinking of Holy Spirit wasn't an improvement of any kind I'd agree easily to no regeneration occuring.

But we are not baptized into Christ spiritually...with water. We are baptized into Christ spiritually. It is a spiritual union between God and man, Christ is the Baptizer, and the Spirit is Who He baptizes us into, not water.

You can have a house with 100 broken windows. If you fix one window it has "regenerated"

There is nothing physically "fixed" in New Birth, Utilyan. We await the redemption of our bodies which will not take place until the Rapture. In the meanwhile, we are still being baptized into Christ and being made new creatures.

A regeneration takes place.

That is true, and that is how we are saved. By the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. The washing, or cleansing of regeneration (new birth) is accomplished by the Word of God being utilized in the process. We are saved through the Gospel.

A few passages to consider in regards to being "born of water" would be...


Ephesians 5:25-27

King James Version (KJV)


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



1 Peter 1:23-25

King James Version (KJV)


23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.



James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)


18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


The Word of God has always been a source of cleansing. It shows the sin, and it is not until one is conscious of a condition that they can look to the remedy. In regards to regeneration we see that the revelation of the Gospel Mystery enlightens men to their condition and destiny, and it is only the Gospel being revealed to men by which they can receive cleansing in that context.

That is the fulfillment of this promise of God, which is the clearest picture of the Promise of New Birth found in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Christ clarifies the Promise of the Father in John 14-16, and that is precisely what is in view when He states...


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The Promise of the Father was the outpouring of His Spirit upon His people. The disciples clearly have not received this Promise yet, though the disciples were surely baptized in water, most likely by John.

And not one Disciple of Christ is ever said, after Pentecost, that they themselves are water baptized in the name of Christ. Not one.

So if water baptism is integral to regeneration, then we wonder why they were not baptized in the name of Christ in water as they did baptize men who we know for certainty were baptized of John (Acts 19).


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Regeneration pretty broad thing, If you were to speak to non-Christians who have no knowledge of Jesus, You would be regenerating them or if you want to get humble, Christ would be regenerating their knowledge of God through you.

Utilyan, we do not regenerate men, lol.

That is the operation of God.

Being born of God is accomplished by God, or we would call it being born of God and man.


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)


11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


When Christ states men must be born from above, He is saying they must be born of God, as we see here.

Secondly, we know that this birth is not something witnessed by the eye:


John 3:6-8

King James Version (KJV)


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


We can witness water baptism, we cannot witness regeneration.

Christ contrasts being born of flesh with being born of the Spirit, He is not saying that we must be both, and correlating this to water.

When Nicodemus suggests physical birth Christ makes it clear...Nicodemus is in error. We should not replicate his error as well and correlate being born of God with physical birth.

That one has to be born physically for one to be born again is a given, and we should be able to see from Christ's teachings that being born of God has nothing to do with that which is physical.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Getting baptized is not the only absolute way to be saved, God can do what he wants, God can save you for no reason.

Getting baptized is not a way to get saved...period, even as being baptized by John was not a way to receive repentance. Those baptized of John were publicly professing that they had repented, and if you remember, John refused to baptized certain individuals because their lives contradicted that they had repented, and he demands they "bring forth fruit meet unto repentance," or in other words...prove it.

So too, Christian Baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as well as in the Name of Christ...is a public profession that one has believed on Christ. They are then associated with Christ, just as the Children of Israel are associated with the name of Moses, and the disciples of John are associates with john.

And God does not save "for no reason," He saves because He loves us and does not want us to go into eternal separation. That is why He gave His Word.

Note the teaching of Christ in regards to men escaping eternal torment through the Word of God:


Luke 16:27-31

King James Version (KJV)


27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


We have to keep this in the framework it falls within, which is the Age of Law. But we see that what God revealed in His Word was sufficient to keep men from eternal separation.

And we also see that the personal testimony of an individual is not salvific, nor is the basis of miraculous event.

It is the Word of God which men must come into obedience to, and it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ men must obey in this Age:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

King James Version (KJV)


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Getting baptized is a definite ticket to being saved.

Sorry, no. And teaching that is a definite ticket to false conversion and easy believism.

If you teach men they can be water baptized and saved they will, regardless of obedience to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...assume salvation is found in ritual ceremony, and it is not.

Salvation is found in the Ministry of the Comforter convicting the sinner through the Gospel of Christ enlightened to his natural mind. He is made to be aware of his condition, and repentance is demanded of him:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.




Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)


29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Just as being water baptized by John did not help the insincere seeker of baptism, neither will Christian Baptism benefit the unregenerate seeker.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

1 Corinthians 12
12For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20But now there are many members, but one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.

Notice we are baptized into one body "by One Spirit."

That is God, Utilyan.

Not a priest, not a Pastor, not a missionary.

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Again we keep this within the framework, the context of the day in which this teaching is given, and when we consider that the Gospel Mystery is not revealed until the Spirit is sent, we understand that the Kingdom in view here, while also referring to God's spiritual rule and reign of believers (which was in existence in that day), has a primary application to the Millennial Kingdom, which Catholics used to accept.

At the end of the Tribulation not one person that has not been born again will enter into that Kingdom, but, in the 75 day period of establishment (Daniel 12:11-13) all unbelievers will be destroyed. Only those born again will be left behind to enter into that Kingdom.

That is the Kingdom revealed to Nicodemus, and that is the teaching Christ ministers within.

Again, it does not nullify that our own entrance to the Kingdom of God (which is the ultimate reality of Christ's teaching here) is accomplished by being born of God, or, "from above," but, we do not see anything here that allows us to nullify what we are taught about being born of God and then equate it to water baptism.

Again, look at Peter recounting Cornelius' conversion:


Acts 11:13-18

King James Version (KJV)


13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Not one mention about speaking in tongues, and not one mention of water baptism.

The only thing in view is that he (and his household) were saved by the "words spoken by Peter," which, if you read Acts 10 you will see that "the Word" spoken was the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Cornelius was a proselyte to Judaism, and Acts 10 recounts his salvation in Christ.

Peter gives us the account of what took place, and it is clear...Cornelius receives life through receiving the Spirit of God, which he correlates to...

...the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Cornelius in immersed into life, immersed into God, and immersed into the Body of Christ on that day.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus tells us we must be baptized.

What He does say to the disciples is "You will be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Baptizing people in His Name is not the same thing.

Again...where do we see any of the disciples water baptized?

Later in the chapter:

22After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.

You ought to ask yourself.....WHY is Jesus, GOD ALMIGHTY, baptizing people for!?

I don't need to ask myself that, because He wasn't:


John 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)



And after Pentecost, everyone was baptized without exception in the Name of Christ. Except for the disciples.

If baptism does nothing, GOD baptizing people tops all absurdity.

What is absurd is to build a doctrine that does not take into consideration clear statements that dismantle the doctrine itself.

God did not baptize with water, my friend.

Christ is the Baptizer, and He baptizes only with Spirit:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


The "baptism with fire" refers to judgment. Here there are two choices set before John's audience:

1. Eternal Salvation (gathered into the Garner of Christ);

2. Eternal Judgment (burned up with unquenchable fire).


John, Christ, Peter, and Paul...all distinguish between the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and baptism with water.

If you were a soul who wanted to be damned rather then saved, Getting baptized is a good way to mess that plan up.

Which seems to contradict what you said earlier.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

There is only one Baptism. There isn't one fancier baptism vs another. There is only ONE baptism.
Ephesians 4
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.



1 peter 3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.



baptism now saves you— Baptism isn't something divided from Christ. There is a connection between Christ died for sins for ALL, bringing us to GOD, Comparison of us spiritually saved as Noah was through the water of BAPTISM.


Even the Phrase "BAPTISM now saves you"

Say it! Say baptism now saves us with an AMEN!


The Apostle said it. That phrase would never come out your mouth. We say it all the time.

Clearly Peter is one of us.

What exactly was meant is exactly what is said. A BIBLE believing Christian has no problem with this.

Doesn't have to RE-write everything BACKWARDS, doesn't have to make up RULES that are not even written down.

I invite you to believe what the bible actually says.

It is made clear that the Baptism in view is not physical, Utilyan:


1 Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


God bless.

 

[utilyan]

Mark 16
16“He who has believed

What He does say to the disciples is "You will be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Baptizing people in His Name is not the same thing.

Again...where do we see any of the disciples water baptized?




I don't need to ask myself that, because He wasn't:


John 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)



And after Pentecost, everyone was baptized without exception in the Name of Christ. Except for the disciples.





What is absurd is to build a doctrine that does not take into consideration clear statements that dismantle the doctrine itself.

God did not baptize with water, my friend.

Christ is the Baptizer, and He baptizes only with Spirit:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


The "baptism with fire" refers to judgment. Here there are two choices set before John's audience:

1. Eternal Salvation (gathered into the Garner of Christ);

2. Eternal Judgment (burned up with unquenchable fire).


John, Christ, Peter, and Paul...all distinguish between the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and baptism with water.




Which seems to contradict what you said earlier.


God bless.

Darrel there is only ONE BAPTISM. not two or three. Water baptism is not a lesser baptism.

Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.


The source of your confusion is adopting Either/or and divisional theology.

Which of these passages is true?

Acts 2
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

38Peter said to them, “Receive the gift of the holy spirit for the forgiveness of your sins so then you can repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 39“For the promise is for you alone and grown ups and for all who are close to Jesus, as chosen few the Lord our God will call to Himself.”



John 3

22After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24for John had not yet been thrown into prison.

Or is it

22After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because Jesus had a flamethrower; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24for John had not yet been thrown into prison.



Galatians
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.



I'm amazed how much of an idiot you think Jesus is.

Does washing your car take away sins? The bible might as well teach washing your donkey and cart along with water baptism. Gee thanks for a useless tip.


John 3

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I mean

"truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat a bacon cheeseburger and have the holy spirit he can't enter the kingdom of God.

Bacon cheeseburger is as useful as water baptism

Am I right?


Mark 16

16“He who has believed and eats a Baconator Cheeseburger shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.



We can literally fill in the blank of "baptism" with anything you want and the consistency of that laughable theology would remain constant. Its just a blatant attempt to destroy the sacrament. And cause internal scriptural division and confusion.

 

[Darrell C]

Mark 16
16“He who has believed




Darrel there is only ONE BAPTISM. not two or three. Water baptism is not a lesser baptism.

Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.


The source of your confusion is adopting Either/or and divisional theology.

Which of these passages is true?

Acts 2
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

38Peter said to them, “Receive the gift of the holy spirit for the forgiveness of your sins so then you can repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 39“For the promise is for you alone and grown ups and for all who are close to Jesus, as chosen few the Lord our God will call to Himself.”



John 3

22After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24for John had not yet been thrown into prison.

Or is it

22After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because Jesus had a flamethrower; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24for John had not yet been thrown into prison.



Galatians
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.



I'm amazed how much of an idiot you think Jesus is.

Does washing your car take away sins? The bible might as well teach washing your donkey and cart along with water baptism. Gee thanks for a useless tip.


John 3

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I mean

"truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat a bacon cheeseburger and have the holy spirit he can't enter the kingdom of God.

Bacon cheeseburger is as useful as water baptism

Am I right?


Mark 16

16“He who has believed and eats a Baconator Cheeseburger shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.



We can literally fill in the blank of "baptism" with anything you want and the consistency of that laughable theology would remain constant. Its just a blatant attempt to destroy the sacrament. And cause internal scriptural division and confusion.

Utilyan, most of this makes little sense.

There is more than one baptism, the One Baptism Paul speaks of is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, whereby the believer is baptized into God, Christ, the Spirit.

Address what I said about the "water" and we can take it from there.

You, like Nicodemus, are thinking carnally, physically, and Christ makes it clear that is not what being born of water and the Spirit refers to.

You can witness a man eating a cheeseburger, but you cannot witness a man being born of God. Being born of God, as shown to you in the passages quoted...

...is accomplished as a spiritual process invisible to the eye, and utilizes the Word of God,, specifically, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not physical water.

So for now I will focus on one point you tried to make: do you still feel that God was baptizing with water, because you thought Christ was baptizing with water?

Do you not see that what Christ is foretold of baptizing with is the Spirit of God?

No water in that, amigo.


God bless.