I have. I believe the child is in Heaven. I think this is the third time I've said as much. I just haven't waxed theological as have some. I made my last post to cut through some of that waxing.
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Infant Death and Salvation
- Thread starter Darrell C
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Well perhaps you did, and if so, sorry, but my attention has been elsewhere, and have not had time to review the thread.
But, as stated before, we need to understand this from a Biblical perspective, so, would you mind providing the Biblical Basis for why you believe they are in Heaven. I think I have made it clear myself I agree with you, and my hope is that we might be able to bring this to a point where, from Scripture, we can be ready to speak to that grieving parent, and do so solely on the Authority of Scripture.
God bless.
Darrell, I am pretty much in agreement with TCassidy. I just not into piling on.
I agree with him too, but, I think there is much more to discuss about this issue, lol.
Okay, Squire, thanks for your participation.
God bless.
"Darrell C,
What about Adam, Noah, Methusalah, Job, Enoch???
earlier you said this-
This is why we cannot progress. You say you agree with several of my posted links and statements, but in reality you do not agree.I originally quoted from the 1689 conf of faith. It speaks of elect infants dying in infancy.....
Election is based upon a person being in the Covenant of redemption which you by pass and speak of the New Covenant instead.
So.....men before Abraham were not in Covenant with God, and not reconciled??? you say this is the only covenant by which men were reconciled.....
What about Adam, Noah, Methusalah, Job, Enoch???
earlier you said this-
This is why we cannot progress. You say you agree with several of my posted links and statements, but in reality you do not agree.I originally quoted from the 1689 conf of faith. It speaks of elect infants dying in infancy.....
Election is based upon a person being in the Covenant of redemption which you by pass and speak of the New Covenant instead.
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Hello Squire,
I do not tell them either of those options. I explain to them that God has purposed to save a multitude of persons In His Son. The identity of all those being saved is known only to God. I explain that all who are saved by God are saved by His mercy and that salvation is all of God.
Babies are not automatically saved because they are babies. The fact that we speak of any baby being saved it is because God would have mercy on that child...
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Cold comfort at that then.
No, this is the starting point. No one enters but by grace through faith in Christ. Period. No exceptions.
Start there and the matter will by degrees clear itself up.
That position then takes time to acquire...So if you arelooking to bottom line this, then you believe that God only saves those who live long enough or those withouta physical or mental handicaps. Is that really your belief system? REALLY!?!
There is no scriptural warrant to go beyond it. Every person who has anyone in the family die wants to hear that the deceased person is in heaven.
I would suggest you are missing something.
Did you ever go to a funeral where they said....too bad he did not quite make it?
Your missing Gods Mercy.
I do not think so....anyone and everyone who God saves is an object of His mercy.
The thing is we do not know who God is saving and we know it is not every single person. We can speak of God's mercy to those He has purposed to save. It is best left in God's hands where it is in reality.
YLT Acts 2:29 'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;
Question? Is Peter speaking about the once living soul David, the son of Jesse, who Peter says that on the day of Pentecost fifty days following the resurrection of Jesus the seed of David, that he is at that time the dead soul David and buried?
Does Peter not say that the prophet David was not speaking of himself when he wrote that his soul would not be left in Hades neither would his flesh see corruption but was speaking of his seed whom God would raise up to sit on his, David's throne? That seed being Jesus Christ and the raising up was the resurrection, that his soul would not be left in Hades neither would his flesh see corruption?
If David was speaking of his seed and not himself; Where, on that Pentecost day fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus his seed, had the soul David been left? The soul David had not been resurrected, The soul David was both dead and buried, says Peter. O death, where thy sting? O Hades, where thy victory? Ps 49:15 YLT Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah.
Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Is that David speaking of himself or is it David the prophet again speaking of his seed the Christ? 2 Tim 2:8 KJV Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Did David go to his son as he said he would and where was that son of David on that same day of Pentecost?
Through what gate did the soul Jesus pass into Hades? Through what gate did the soul of David'd baby son pass into Sheol/Hades? Through what gate did the soul David pass into Sheol/Hades?
Will that gate prevail against David and his baby son? I do not think so. Did that gate prevail against David's seed Jesus of Nazareth? No it did not.
Interesting commentary.
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Unabridged
Psalms 86:13
Verse 13. For great is thy mercy toward me; and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell - quoted in part from Psalms 56:12-13. "Mercy" - thy goodness or 'grace' to me [ checed (Hebrew #2617)], the same Hebrew of which the adjective, "I am holy," or 'pious,' or 'godly,' occurs in Psalms 86:2. The grace that is in the godly the result of God's grace toward them. As both Psalms 34:1-22; Psalms 56:1-13, in the titles, show that they were composed concerning the narrow escape which God vouchsafed to David out of the imminent danger of death ("the lowest hell") to which he was exposed when he was with Achish the Philistine king at Gath, I prefer considering this to be the special deliverance from death (as "hell," or Sheol, or Hades, often means) intended here, not David's deliverance from Saul (cf. Psalms 34:4; Psalms 34:6; Psalms 34:17; Psalms 34:22); but this reference cannot exhaust the strong language here. The full force of the words applies to the Head of the Church, 'the firstborn from the dead'-Messiah, who praises the Father for having raised His body from the grave and His soul from the unseen abode of disembodied spirits-Hades; as He also said by anticipation (Psalms 16:9). The redeemed shall, at the resurrection of the just, sing the same thanksgiving perfectly. Meanwhile everyone who hath the earnest of the Spirit sings it, though not perfectly, yet at least sincerely, and with the prayerful desire to have his "heart" so 'united' to God in reverential gratitude, as to be able to "praise" the Lord as HIS God 'with ALL his heart' (Psalms 86:11-12).
I put in bold and underlined.
Question? Is Peter speaking about the once living soul David, the son of Jesse, who Peter says that on the day of Pentecost fifty days following the resurrection of Jesus the seed of David, that he is at that time the dead soul David and buried?
Does Peter not say that the prophet David was not speaking of himself when he wrote that his soul would not be left in Hades neither would his flesh see corruption but was speaking of his seed whom God would raise up to sit on his, David's throne? That seed being Jesus Christ and the raising up was the resurrection, that his soul would not be left in Hades neither would his flesh see corruption?
If David was speaking of his seed and not himself; Where, on that Pentecost day fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus his seed, had the soul David been left? The soul David had not been resurrected, The soul David was both dead and buried, says Peter. O death, where thy sting? O Hades, where thy victory? Ps 49:15 YLT Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah.
Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Is that David speaking of himself or is it David the prophet again speaking of his seed the Christ? 2 Tim 2:8 KJV Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Did David go to his son as he said he would and where was that son of David on that same day of Pentecost?
Through what gate did the soul Jesus pass into Hades? Through what gate did the soul of David'd baby son pass into Sheol/Hades? Through what gate did the soul David pass into Sheol/Hades?
Will that gate prevail against David and his baby son? I do not think so. Did that gate prevail against David's seed Jesus of Nazareth? No it did not.
Interesting commentary.
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Unabridged
Psalms 86:13
Verse 13. For great is thy mercy toward me; and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell - quoted in part from Psalms 56:12-13. "Mercy" - thy goodness or 'grace' to me [ checed (Hebrew #2617)], the same Hebrew of which the adjective, "I am holy," or 'pious,' or 'godly,' occurs in Psalms 86:2. The grace that is in the godly the result of God's grace toward them. As both Psalms 34:1-22; Psalms 56:1-13, in the titles, show that they were composed concerning the narrow escape which God vouchsafed to David out of the imminent danger of death ("the lowest hell") to which he was exposed when he was with Achish the Philistine king at Gath, I prefer considering this to be the special deliverance from death (as "hell," or Sheol, or Hades, often means) intended here, not David's deliverance from Saul (cf. Psalms 34:4; Psalms 34:6; Psalms 34:17; Psalms 34:22); but this reference cannot exhaust the strong language here. The full force of the words applies to the Head of the Church, 'the firstborn from the dead'-Messiah, who praises the Father for having raised His body from the grave and His soul from the unseen abode of disembodied spirits-Hades; as He also said by anticipation (Psalms 16:9). The redeemed shall, at the resurrection of the just, sing the same thanksgiving perfectly. Meanwhile everyone who hath the earnest of the Spirit sings it, though not perfectly, yet at least sincerely, and with the prayerful desire to have his "heart" so 'united' to God in reverential gratitude, as to be able to "praise" the Lord as HIS God 'with ALL his heart' (Psalms 86:11-12).
I put in bold and underlined.
My belief is that faith is not an operation of the mind, but of the spirit. Is it really your belief that a physical handicap or underdeveloped brain can hinder faith? REALLY!?!
It never has been, however I just wanted to clarify your position
I agree with that. But after living with a Cerebral Palsey sister for 39 years & having lost a child in infancy, well I spent allot of time working this out in my own mind.
Yes.
However, if those Covenants had meant to be enduring then God would not have needed to make promise of the New Covenant, which was established through Christ. This is just a basic theme of the Kingdom years.
We know that the Covenants that went before did not reconcile men to God, first, because they were not meant to endure as they were established (meaning, for example, we do not see the Abrahamic Covenant as the Covenant men enter into today), and secondly we see that God reconciling men to Himself was accomplished in the Person of Christ.
Reconciliation could not be accomplished apart from Atonement, and prior to the Sacrifice of Christ all Covenants established had, in regards to remission of sins, the sacrifice of animals. The Abrahamic Covenant was established the same way that the Covenant of Law was established, with the blood of animals, THis is what the Writer of Hebrews refers to (animal blood/death) when he states...
Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
We see a familiar theme in numerous passages that clarify that sin was not atoned for through vicarious sacrifice that was not the Sacrifice of Christ:
2 Corinthians 5:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
We see Reconciliation and Atonement always associated with Christ and His Work when we speak of remission on an eternal basis.
Here are a few passages that show sin was not redeemed through the previous system of animal sacrifice:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Think about Abraham being justified, declared righteous based on his faith, then compare that to the believer being Justified by the Blood of Christ. Two entirely different perspectives, one temporal, one eternal.
Continued...
Not exactly: the preceding Covenants all looked to the establishment of the New Covenant. We see the world blessed through the Seed of Abraham, we see the everlasting Kingdom of the Son of David, and we see even in the Covenant of Law that Christ is the ultimate end of the Promises of God.
While these Covenants did not reconcile men, but brought about temporal relationship in the relevant Ages they were established, we still do not exclude them as separate from the New Covenant, but that they held the Eternal Promises of God and were foundational.
We can rightly say that those men were saved in the eternal perspective, but, that doesn't mean they were made complete in regards to relationship with God. This is what Christ means when He states "I am the True Vine," He is saying "I am the True means of relationship with God (as opposed to the relationships established in prior Covenants)."
All men of faith, who received the Promises of God, but did not receive those promises, as spoken in Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40.
Consider that the Covenant of Law was established and was the Covenant relationship in place when Christ came. He did not nullify the Law in His Ministry, but conformed to it, because He did, after all...establish it, and it served its purpose. That does not mean that the Abrahamic Covenant was nullified, those promises, like every promise of God, remained effective. But it is not until those promises are fulfilled that we see the reality of the Promises.
And that happened when God established the New Covenant, and that is why we are Ministers of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant that stretches back into history.
And I am short on time, Iconoclast, so this is going to be brief.
Continued...
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