The Final Authority of Scripture

[The Biblicist]

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. - Isa. 8:20

INTRODUCTION:

I have found by experience that every time I have entered into a debate with those who either deny scriptures as final authority, or who believe in continuing revelation beyond the scriptures, or who believe in more sources of authority than the completed Biblical canon, that although at first, they claim to respect the Bible as God's inspired Word, ultimately they attack the Bible in order to defend their position of on going revelation or their position of final authority goes beyond the Bible. In doing so they reveal their true colors.

It is my position, which I will defend in this thread, (1) That God's Word is final authority over the word of men; (2) That all Scripture is God's Word and it is delivered through prophets. (3) that prophets can be objectively tested to determine if what they write or teach is God's inspired Word and thus pseudography can be identified; (4) that all true Scripture is final authority when it comes to non-scripture sources (great men or traditions); (5) that inspired scripture predicts the completion of the Biblical canon within the first century.

My presuppositions behind all of these points is that one believes in the existence of the God revealed in the Bible and one accepts at minimum the Old Testament Hebrew canon and at minimum the 27 books of the New Testament. This is not an debate on the existence of God or the number of books in the Biblical canon.

A. God's Word is final authority over the word of men:

This should be a no brainer. If there is any conflict between what can be verified as God's Word versus the word of men, God's word is the final authority simply because the source is God in whom there can be no darkness but Who is the Spirit of Truth.

B. That All Scripture is God's Word and is delivered by God through prophets:

Jesus repeatedly used the phrase "the law and the prophets" when describing what he recognized as scriptures in his day. The "law" he attributed to Moses who claimed to be God's prophet (Deut. 18:18). In the story of the rich man and Lazerus when the rich man asked that someone from the dead be sent back to his brethren, Abraham responded that "they have Moses and the prophets" (Lk. 16:29) a phrase which is synonymous with "the scriptures" as clearly demonstrated in the following text:

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He did not say they had "Moses and the prophets and sacred traditions." This is not to say that Jesus condemned all the sacred traditions of the Jews, but it is to say that he considered prophetic scripture as final authority between the two. Jesus condemned all traditions that violated the scriptures (Mt. 15) thus demonstrating the scriptures act as final authority when traditions are being considered.

Paul considered the scriptures as the product of prophets:

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

The writer of Hebrews attributed God's word coming through prophets (Heb. 1:1).

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Jer 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

SUMMARY: In summarizing the first two points of my proposition, (1) God's word takes precedence as final authority over the words of men; (2) Scriptures are God's Word through prophets and take precedence as final authority over unwritten sources.

(Continued)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Tell this to Christians! Don't tell this to Christians! Unless you are a good python wrestler.

 

[Crabtownboy]

It seems to me the problem is not scripture, but the interpretation of scripture by men/women.

 

[The Biblicist]

It seems to me the problem is not scripture, but the interpretation of scripture by men/women.

Well, I understand your point, but interpretation is another matter. Unless one first recognizes the scriptures as final authority interpretation matters little. If one accepts it as final authority then we can delve into the problems of proper hermeneutics.

 

[The Biblicist]

My third point is:

C. Prophetic speaking and writing can be tested to verify if God has spoken through them.

The greatest prophet writer of Old Testament scripture (Moses) provided God's people with two basic tests to validate a true from a false prophet. These tests are found in Deut. 13:1-5 and 18:15-20:

Deut. 13:1 ¶ If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Deut. 18:15-20

15 ¶ The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Now there are some important features about these tests that should be fully understood. First, false prophets are capable of doing signs and wonders similar to God's prophets (Deut. 13:1) and their predictions are capable of coming to pass as predicted (Deut. 13:2). In this case the acid test is not the supernatural or fulfillment of their prophecies, but if the doctrinal content of their prophecies harmonize with former validated words of God. The miraculous of false prophets is said to be God's test of his people's faithfulness to his "commandments" already previously validated. Since God verified his prophets through miracles signs and wonders, such false prophets confirmed by miracles signs and wonders but their content being false doctrine would identify their miracles as Satanic in power and "lying" miracles signs and wonders (2 Thes. 2:9) because it was Satan's attempt to mimic God's authentication process.

The second test is confirms that any prophet who predicted coming events and they did not come to pass was a false prophet. In contrast God's prophets are supernaturally controlled by God, as God actually puts in their mouth only his words so they they always come to pass - "put my words in his mouth,and he shall speak unto them all that I command." The same is repeated elsewhere with regard to His prophets (Jer. 1:5-7). The mouth of his prophets are controlled by his power.

Ex. 3:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man’s mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.


Even when God uses false prophets they are incapable of speaking anything that God does not put in their mouth (Balaam, and the High Priest that crucified Christ).

This is why any prophet that fails just once is to be put to death (Deut. 13:5, 18:20). Some may argue this law could only be administered under a theocratic form of government and we no longer live under such a government. That is true, however, it cannot be denied that this is still God's opinion of what a false prophet is and how he should be dealt with and therefore even though the penalty cannot be administered does not mean the test is not valid today and the people of God should permanently discount such a prophet as God's prophet even though they cannot terminate his life.

As the Biblical canon became larger, more tests for validating true versus false prophets were added to these first two tests:

1. The Test of Lying Wonders - Deut. 13:1-5

2. The Test of Fulfillment - Deut. 18:21-22

3. The Test of Prophetic fulfilled Visions - Jer. 23:32

4. The Test of Plagiarism - Jer. 23:25, 30

5. The Test of Good Fruit - Mt. 7:15, 20

6. The Test of Confusion - 1 Cor. 14:33-37

7. The Test of Christ’s Person - 1 Jn. 4:1-6

The New Testament writers continue to exhort Christians to put apply these tests to all who claim to be prophets (1 Jn. 4:1; 1 Thes. 5:13).

Therefore, here are at least seven Biblical tests that can be applied to those who claim to be prophets, or to those words and writings that other's claim to be God's spoken or written word. These tests are important in establishing what writings ought to be included in the Biblical canon. Based on these Biblical tests, the Jews, who were the caretakers of the scriptures rejected the Apocrypha writings as candidates for inclusion in the Old Testament Biblical canon. Also, non-Catholic denominations rejected the writings found in the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers based upon the same Biblical tests.

Finally, there is a pattern beginning in Moses and extending to the apostles concerning oral versus written revelation. The oral always preceded written revelation. The written revelation provided God's people a "more sure word of prophecy" than oral traditions and always was considered by God's prophets, Christ and the Apostles as final authority over all oral traditions. This should be obvious, as oral traditions depended upon uninspired means for their transmission from one age to another and accuracy.

 

[The Biblicist]

D. Scripture is final authority over oral traditions and uninspired men

The Scriptures reveal that the prophets spoke God's Word orally before they committed to writing. This is true in the Old Testament as in the case of Moses who communicated God's Word orally to Israel prior to writing it out. This is true with the Apostles who committed Christ's word orally to the churches (Acts 2:42; 14:3-4; etc.) before they committed it to writing.

However, it is the written record that takes priority in every case and for obvious reasons. For example, the Jews had their sacred oral traditions of the elders. However, by the time of Christ they were polluted with much error and Christ never appealed to the oral traditions for final authority but always appealed to the scriptures as his final authority. Where there was conflict between the oral tradition and scripture Christ sided with Scripture against the oral tradition (Mt. 15).

When Christ gave the account of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man asked Abraham to have someone from the dead go back and warn his brethren. Abraham's response was "they have Moses and the prophets." He did not say they have Moses and the Prophets and the traditions of the elders. The phrase "Moses and the prophets" is used consistently for scriptures only:

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

As long as the prophet was alive, his oral teaching could be verified. However, after his death it fell into the hands of uninspired men and the only way it could be verified was by the written record of that prophet. Oral traditions by the time of Christ were completely unreliable because they had been passed down by the totally unreliable memories of men.

While Peter was alive, he told his readers that the written record was a "more sure" record than his own personal witness of the transfiguration on the Mount of Transfiguration (1 Pet. 1:15-18). It was "more sure" because the written word was not a product of the private interpretative view of the prophet, but the prophet was controlled by the Spirit of God to speak only what God determined (1 Pet. 1:20-21).

Anyone who examines the "Ante-Nicene Church Fathers" can see all kinds of fantasies and errors (short versus long accounts, etc.). I consider the "Ante-Nicene" and Nicene and Post-Nicene to be the secular record of apostasy from New Testament Christianity. My reasons for that estimation are many. (1) They violate the tests of prophetic authenticity; (2) There are obvious developmental errors; (3) They fit the characteristics of New Testament prophetic apostasy versus New Testament prophetic characteristics of the future of New Testament Christianity.

The church is called the "pillar and ground of the truth" not because it legislates or always properly interprets the truth, and not because its leaders always conform to the truth. It is called that, because it's doctrinal foundation (Eph. 2:20) is based on the prophetic written record as final authority.

 

[Smyth]

It seems to me the problem is not scripture, but the interpretation of scripture by men/women.

You can use "men" to mean both men and women, and only a bigot would judge you for it. Regarding the interpretation of scripture by men, I think mostly interpretation rests on one's [see what I did there] view of the authority of scripture.

 

[Adonia]

D. Scripture is final authority over oral traditions and uninspired men

The Scriptures reveal that the prophets spoke God's Word orally before they committed to writing. This is true in the Old Testament as in the case of Moses who communicated God's Word orally to Israel prior to writing it out. This is true with the Apostles who committed Christ's word orally to the churches (Acts 2:42; 14:3-4; etc.) before they committed it to writing.

However, it is the written record that takes priority in every case and for obvious reasons. For example, the Jews had their sacred oral traditions of the elders. However, by the time of Christ they were polluted with much error and Christ never appealed to the oral traditions for final authority but always appealed to the scriptures as his final authority. Where there was conflict between the oral tradition and scripture Christ sided with Scripture against the oral tradition (Mt. 15).

When Christ gave the account of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man asked Abraham to have someone from the dead go back and warn his brethren. Abraham's response was "they have Moses and the prophets." He did not say they have Moses and the Prophets and the traditions of the elders. The phrase "Moses and the prophets" is used consistently for scriptures only:

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

As long as the prophet was alive, his oral teaching could be verified. However, after his death it fell into the hands of uninspired men and the only way it could be verified was by the written record of that prophet. Oral traditions by the time of Christ were completely unreliable because they had been passed down by the totally unreliable memories of men.

While Peter was alive, he told his readers that the written record was a "more sure" record than his own personal witness of the transfiguration on the Mount of Transfiguration (1 Pet. 1:15-18). It was "more sure" because the written word was not a product of the private interpretative view of the prophet, but the prophet was controlled by the Spirit of God to speak only what God determined (1 Pet. 1:20-21).

Anyone who examines the "Ante-Nicene Church Fathers" can see all kinds of fantasies and errors (short versus long accounts, etc.). I consider the "Ante-Nicene" and Nicene and Post-Nicene to be the secular record of apostasy from New Testament Christianity. My reasons for that estimation are many. (1) They violate the tests of prophetic authenticity; (2) There are obvious developmental errors; (3) They fit the characteristics of New Testament prophetic apostasy versus New Testament prophetic characteristics of the future of New Testament Christianity.

The church is called the "pillar and ground of the truth" not because it legislates or always properly interprets the truth, and not because its leaders always conform to the truth. It is called that, because it's doctrinal foundation (Eph. 2:20) is based on the prophetic written record as final authority.

All you are doing is making claims with your A, B, C, and D exhortations. I say the One Universal Church is the final authority, with the power given to it by Jesus Christ himself to do so. Everything else, done by everyone else, are just various interpretations of the Scriptures, thus in reality setting themselves up as the final authority.

 

[The Biblicist]

All you are doing is making claims with your A, B, C, and D exhortations. I say the One Universal Church is the final authority, with the power given to it by Jesus Christ himself to do so. Everything else, done by everyone else, are just various interpretations of the Scriptures, thus in reality setting themselves up as the final authority.

No, I am supplying scriptures that are very clear and explicit. Did you notice that your post supplies nothing but your opinion?

Any heretic can respond by saying "that is your interpretation" but my response is either demonstrate contextually that it is not the clear teaching of God's Word or else be quiet as you have no basis to talk. I am prepared to demonstrate by the historical grammatical immediate and overall context that my position is not "my interpretation" but is precisely what the Word of God is teaching in context.

BTW there is no such thing as a "universal visible" or "universal invisible" church in the scriptures.

 

[utilyan]

My experience is debating folks to insist on sola scriptura is they are not bible believers anyway. They read verses backwards, make up rules that are not written.....like sola scriptura.

They force man-made sense of reliability on God.

Communication happens in many forms. Between us sure ink an paper is more reliable then smoke signals or telling another person. But God involved our sense of reliability should be thrown out the window.

God will slay a giant with a child, he doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called.

So God's choice method of communication is superior to ours.

Scripture is God breathed, So is his church God breathed in Pentecost and his church is one flesh with Jesus Christ.


What is the pillar and foundation of truth? The bible right?

1 timothy 3
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.


Matthew 18
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

The church is the foundation. Jesus could have said well if you disagree lets crack open some scripture.....No tell it to the church.



The bible WARNS against SOLA SCRIPTURA.

2 peter 3
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Scripture REQUIRES guidance. Anyone without knowledge of Christianity handed a bible is UNTAUGHT, UNSTABLE. They will distort scriptures. TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION

Couldn't this fact be painfully obvious 2000 or so denominations who all are "sola scriptura". With a plenty of them insisting each other is damned. All claiming to have the holy spirit.

If you hand a bible to someone without guiding them, this is a sin. You can destroy them.

Flat out scripture warns us. Yet my unlearned and unstable brethren will insist EXACTLY BACKWARDS from what is stated.




Pharaoh probably believed in sola scriptura that's why he didn't pay Moses any mind since Moses had no authority.

God is final authority. Not ink and paper.

The fundamental unit is the Christian
2 Corinthians 3
2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.



Christianity has one goal, which is God's goal, the goal of Jesus Christ.
1 timothy 1
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.




Even if the scripture spelled out PLAINLY declaring it is the final authority. It could not override the authority of language.

I hand you a Chinese bible accurate as is, SOLA SCRIPTURA does not function. You will require literary guidance. AUTHORITY, to establish meaning of words, idioms, figures of speech, ect.


( I copied the below to make point)



“I didn’t say you stole money…”
Question, do you know what I mean by this? Its pretty straight forward right? Are you sure you know what I mean?

• Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning it was someone else who said it.
• Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning, I wrote it in an email, or sent it in a text.
• Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning it wasn’t YOU that stole it, but, someone else.
• Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning it wasn’t money you stole, rather, jewels or food, etc.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Lord Jesus and the apostles set forth predictive or prophetic characteristics of the post-new testament apostate Christianity as well as the future of New Testament Christianity.

Jesus tells the aposltes that one of the major characteristics of false Christianity is that it will persecute and kill professed Christians in the name of God:

Jn. 16: 1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Often those who oppose this interpretation claim this applied only to the Jewish religion because of the word "synoguoges" in verse 2. However, they fail to look the next phrase and the words "whosoever killeth you that he doeth God service" Also, they fail to use common sense. It would not matter who it is that fits this characterization as long as the shoe fits.

Rome persecuted and killed professing Christians for centuries. The Reformation Catholics (Protestants) were just as bad as both persecuted and killed those called "Anabaptists" as well as each other. New Testament Christianity should not be sought against these Christian killers.

Jesus also predicts that such persecutors will pervert and distort the belief's of those they persecute and kill:

Mt. 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Paganized Christian Rome took up the very same persecuting smear tactics of paganized secular Rome.

John condemns any kind of Christianity that unites with secular government in Revelation 17-19:6. This church state union is described as "fornication" with the kings of earth. It is fairly simply to prove that the Great Harlot is institutional false religion and not a secular government as she rides upon what typifies secular government and it is consistently distinguished from secular governments and kings and kingdoms in the context.

The Ante-Nicen, Nicene and Post-Nicene are in reality the secular history of apostate Christianity from its apostate roots to its present day form.

 

[utilyan]

The Lord Jesus and the apostles set forth predictive or prophetic characteristics of the post-new testament apostate Christianity as well as the future of New Testament Christianity.

Jesus tells the aposltes that one of the major characteristics of false Christianity is that it will persecute and kill professed Christians in the name of God:

Jn. 16: 1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Often those who oppose this interpretation claim this applied only to the Jewish religion because of the word "synoguoges" in verse 2. However, they fail to look the next phrase and the words "whosoever killeth you that he doeth God service" Also, they fail to use common sense. It would not matter who it is that fits this characterization as long as the shoe fits.

Rome persecuted and killed professing Christians for centuries. The Reformation Catholics (Protestants) were just as bad as both persecuted and killed those called "Anabaptists" as well as each other. New Testament Christianity should not be sought against these Christian killers.

Jesus also predicts that such persecutors will pervert and distort the belief's of those they persecute and kill:

Mt. 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Paganized Christian Rome took up the very same persecuting smear tactics of paganized secular Rome.

John condemns any kind of Christianity that unites with secular government in Revelation 17-19:6. This church state union is described as "fornication" with the kings of earth. It is fairly simply to prove that the Great Harlot is institutional false religion and not a secular government as she rides upon what typifies secular government and it is consistently distinguished from secular governments and kings and kingdoms in the context.

The Ante-Nicen, Nicene and Post-Nicene are in reality the secular history of apostate Christianity from its apostate roots to its present day form.

Jesus was pointing out evil people not "false religions". The Pharisees' faith could work properly followed.

Luke 10
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”



Who is this Great Harlot? The Devil's faith?

Lets add another prophetic characteristic:

Matthew 10
24“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25“It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Jesus said they call him Beelzebul, and his house hold is expected just as bad or worst a title.

Calling Catholics whore of babylon, Satan's faith, anti-Christ, the harlot on earth.....I hear that from everyone dime a dozen.

Do you know what Catholics call Baptists? ...........Nothing.

Sometimes a wonder if they should for the sake of returning a compliment.

I'm sure they will one day. Among religions it would be nice even hearing the word religion meant a good thing, or even held to our standard the best religion isn't the one stomping on the others but the one that encourages the other to be better like a person the one who would give up its life for sake of another, that is an honorable religion.

If God gave up his SON the epitome of perfect religion for me. It should be no sweat for me to give up my religion for a brother or sister.

If you want to defeat a monster religion do it with love, kindness and compassion.

 

[The Biblicist]

My experience is debating folks to insist on sola scriptura is they are not bible believers anyway. They read verses backwards, make up rules that are not written.....like sola scriptura.

And where do you find that terminology in my posts? Be careful not to make accusations against me simply because you find grounds in others to do so.

They force man-made sense of reliability on God.

Again, it is one thing to make an accusation but another thing to demonstrate it.

Communication happens in many forms. Between us sure ink an paper is more reliable then smoke signals or telling another person. But God involved our sense of reliability should be thrown out the window.

I made myself very clear. I said "scripture" comes through prophets by inspiration. On the other hand I did not speak about the various means of revelation (dreams, visions, direct speaking, etc.). There is a distinction to be made between inspiration, revelation and illumination - they are not one and the same. The subject matter I engaged in was inspiration or God supplying scripture through chosen prophets so that it is like as if God spoke it on to the page without any instrument - God breathed.

So God's choice method of communication is superior to ours.

God is not silent about his methods of communicating His word (Heb. 1:1).

Scripture is God breathed, So is his church God breathed in Pentecost and his church is one flesh with Jesus Christ.

You got half right - His word. Nowhere does scripture say that God breathed into existence his churches. And his church is not "one flesh" with Christ as that is not what John 6 teaches at all or what is taught in the passages concerning the Lord's Supper. You might need a lesson on figures of speech especially metaphors and similes. Transubstantiation is pure paganism.

What is the pillar and foundation of truth? The bible right?

Yes, and it is also the "foundation" of the Lord's churches (Eph. 2:20) and that is the only reason it is the "pillar and ground of the truth" as the true churches of Christ recognize it as their final authority. Paganistic Christianity deny this.

Matthew 18
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Notice the plural "you" in verse 18 not a singular as in one man Peter. Notice also the future perfect tense rather than a mere perfect tense. The Word of God is forever established in heaven and is thus the foundation for that which shall have already been bound in heaven for the church to obey.

The church is the foundation. Jesus could have said well if you disagree lets crack open some scripture.....No tell it to the church.

You are failing to understand that the very instruction "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed" is taken from Scripture and so Christ is confirming the Biblical authority as the foundation for any church action.

The bible WARNS against SOLA SCRIPTURA.

2 peter 3
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

You can't be serious? Is this the extent of your ability to rightly divide scripture????? In context, he had just been discussing those who oppose the Bible teachings (2 Tim. 3:3-7) in the last days and in the text he identifying the subjects of his application as "untaught and unstable" who "distort" (as you are now guilty of doing) God's word. Paul praised the Bereans for not trusting his teaching but validating by the Scriptures - thus final authority recognized by Paul over his own oral instruction.

Scripture REQUIRES guidance. Anyone without knowledge of Christianity handed a bible is UNTAUGHT, UNSTABLE. They will distort scriptures. TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION

Another perversion of the Bible! "anyone"?? This would be applicable to those baptized as infants and churches composed of infants raised by others who entered at infancy. However, John plainly says that those who are born of the Spirit need not that any man teach them but the same anointing (not church, not church leaders, etc.) teacheth them all things (1 Jn. 2:29). Man, institutions and humans in general cannot reach where man is really taught (within his heart, and mind). John the Baptist said man can receive nothing except it first be given unto from "above' not from beneath. If any man comes to know truth it is the work of the Holy Spirit WITHIN him. The Lord may use others in this process, but he can use Balaam's ass just as much or God is able to raise from these stones children of Abraham or have you not read or have you not read this is what Jesus told some scholars whose final authority was oral traditions of the elders.

Couldn't this fact be painfully obvious 2000 or so denominations who all are "sola scriptura". With a plenty of them insisting each other is damned. All claiming to have the holy spirit.

Yeah, like Arian Popes, Eastern Catholocism versus Western Catholocism and all the many schisms within both then and now!

If you hand a bible to someone without guiding them, this is a sin. You can destroy them.

More nonsense! Do you think the word is "bound" just because a capable teacher like Paul is in bonds? Do you think God can't use his word without your help? Where was the church or church teachers on the road to Damascus? Of course God uses established means but to claim he is helpless without such means to save or teach his own people shows a superficial understanding of the Word of God.

Pharaoh probably believed in sola scriptura that's why he didn't pay Moses any mind since Moses had no authority.

More nonsense! Pharoah was not even a God fearer but a complete pagan. BTW the only way you can say this is because of the written Word of God! Think about that!

God is final authority. Not ink and paper.

Now you are showing your true spiritual colors as I predicted your kind would. You cannot separate God from his Word just as the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. Your tone of contempt for God's word finds its only fellowship with heathen found in Scriptures. My posts clearly taught that oral teaching preceded written scripture and so you can't charge me with denying oral teaching. But no man of God, no church in scripture has said or would dare say what you have just said above. It shows the spirit that is really guiding you (1 Jn. 4:6).

The fundamental unit is the Christian
2 Corinthians 3
2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

And how do you think those Corinthians received that internal writing? It did not come about apart from God's Word. Paul did not preach anything contrary to the scriptures or so he says in Acts 26:22-23 ("none other things") or have you read that. Remember why he praised the Bereans? Of course you don't, as that does not fit your narrative or doctrine.

Christianity has one goal, which is God's goal, the goal of Jesus Christ.
1 timothy 1
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

You are demonstrating that you need to be taught the Scriptures. Timothy is also told "to study" in order to "rightly divide the Word of God" so he would be a workman not to be ashamed. You can't just jerk a text out context and establish a doctrine that is clearly contradictive to the overall teaching of Paul to Timothy? Have you read 2 Tim. 3:16-17 and noticed who that was written unto??? Guess not!

 

[The Biblicist]

Even if the scripture spelled out PLAINLY declaring it is the final authority. It could not override the authority of language.

This is an oxymoronic statement. God is not the author of confusion. he never denies His own word or speaks out of both sides of his mouth as he is immutably holy. Communication is impossible apart from words placed in their proper grammatical order. It is the Holy Spirit that places God's words in the grammatical order or there is no communication. Hence 'the authority of language" is finds its meaning in providing meaningful communication or else it is worthless. So if the Scripture "plainly" declares it is final authority who are you to deny it?

I hand you a Chinese bible accurate as is, SOLA SCRIPTURA does not function. You will require literary guidance. AUTHORITY, to establish meaning of words, idioms, figures of speech, ect.

That is why Paul tells Timothy to "study to shew himself approved rightly dividing the Word of God." I don't know about you, but my resume contains around 10 years of formal institutional training in the Bible with a graduate and four post graduate degrees. So am i supposed to be impressed by these abc's?

“I didn’t say you stole money…”
Question, do you know what I mean by this? Its pretty straight forward right? Are you sure you know what I mean?

Of course it is not "pretty straight forward" because there is no immediate or overall context to discern what it means.

• Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning it was someone else who said it.
  [*]Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning, I wrote it in an email, or sent it in a text.
  [*]Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning it wasn’t YOU that stole it, but, someone else.
  [*]Did I mean… “ I did’t say you stole money…” meaning it wasn’t money you stole, rather, jewels or food, etc.

Look, if you want to find some Sunday School children to practice on, then by all means go ahead and I will wait around until you feel you have had enough practice.

 

[Smyth]

My experience is debating folks to insist on sola scriptura is they are not bible believers anyway. They read verses backwards, make up rules that are not written.....like sola scriptura.

Utilyan, could you post your picture? I want to enter your picture in my dictionary for the entry "crass".

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus was pointing out evil people not "false religions".

I hate to break this to you but false religious institutions are just made up of "people' like this.

The Pharisees' faith could work properly followed.
Luke 10
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

No, that is not true! Whenever, Jesus was asked by anyone what must "I DO" his answer was always the Law as that is the standard for DOING. However, notice none of these asked "what must I believe" or "in whom must i believe' or 'how can i be saved."

The law reveals the "righteousness of God" (Rom. 3:21) or his sinless perfection or what the Bible calls his "holiness" which is God's "glory" and sin is coming short of 'the glory of God." Jesus and the apostles made it very clear as far as DOING, none can be justified by trying to keep the law, because none are righteous:

Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?- Jn. 7:17

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

.Who is this Great Harlot? The Devil's faith?

That is the source of all false doctrine or have you not read 1 Tim. 4:1 or 1 Jn. 4:6?

Lets add another prophetic characteristic:

Matthew 10
24“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25“It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Jesus said they call him Beelzebul, and his house hold is expected just as bad or worst a title.[./QUOTE]

This only supports my view as yours has a documented history of murder and persecution that no amount of attempting to blame the secular arm of Rome will remove, or are you not familiar with the ancient Roman Catholic doctrine of the "two swords"??? Guess not.

Calling Catholics whore of babylon, Satan's faith, anti-Christ, the harlot on earth.....I hear that from everyone dime a dozen.-

It is the united testimony of all the Reformers (Calvin, Luther, Zwinglie, etc.).

Do you know what Catholics call Baptists? ...........Nothing.

Your ignorant of your own history. Are you familiar with the name "Anabaptists". Guess who coined that name and why your church coined it? Do you need a history lesson? We were called by that name by Catholics and Reformed Catholics even in America up to the signing of the declaration of Independence. In the 1644 London Confession of faith we complain about being called by that name and what the legal intent for calling us that name in order to bring us under the Laws of Justinian for persecution and legal murder for nothing more than our beliefs. Go study your own history.

Sorry, it will take more than 500 years to erase your bloody history. You can put a sheep skin on a wolf and teach him to smile but it does not change who he really is and his past history to prove it.

 

[utilyan]

I hate to break this to you but false religious institutions are just made up of "people' like this.




No, that is not true! Whenever, Jesus was asked by anyone what must "I DO" his answer was always the Law as that is the standard for DOING. However, notice none of these asked "what must I believe" or "in whom must i believe' or 'how can i be saved."

The law reveals the "righteousness of God" (Rom. 3:21) or his sinless perfection or what the Bible calls his "holiness" which is God's "glory" and sin is coming short of 'the glory of God." Jesus and the apostles made it very clear as far as DOING, none can be justified by trying to keep the law, because none are righteous:

Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?- Jn. 7:17

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


That is the source of all false doctrine or have you not read 1 Tim. 4:1 or 1 Jn. 4:6?

Reconcile your "do' with "always":

John 6
28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”


You don't suppose Belief is implied somewhat in "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”?


Justification and Salvation aside. I love God and neighbor for free.

There is no weighing the command of God. If loving God came with a penalty of hell, then hell it is with a glad heart.

I didn't feel it appropriate to stop and ask what is in it for me.



"I don't know about you, but my resume contains around 10 years of formal institutional training in the Bible with a graduate and four post graduate degrees."

Well I'm glad one of us is taught, happy you are here to hold my hand and provide authoritive guidance, else who knows what crazy stuff I'm going to cook up next with Scripture Alone.


Here let me show you where I got that crazy idea Jesus is one flesh with the church.

Ephesians 5
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

My understanding is the two are one flesh is a great mystery......he's talking about Christ and the Church.



"You are demonstrating that you need to be taught the Scriptures. Timothy is also told "to study" in order to "rightly divide the Word of God" so he would be a workman not to be ashamed. You can't just jerk a text out context and establish a doctrine that is clearly contradictive to the overall teaching of Paul to Timothy? Have you read 2 Tim. 3:16-17 and noticed who that was written unto??? Guess not!"

Of course I haven't read this stuff, only because I haven't gotten to a verse commanding that I had to read this stuff.......


2 timothy 3
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

theopneustos God breathed. Very important AMEN.

Profitable for teaching, profitable for training in righteousness. Profitable for doctrine.


Having eyeballs is profitable for teaching, That doesn't make eyeballs the teaching itself.

We would be dealing with something entirely different if he had said, scripture IS doctrine, scripture IS training in righteousness.

The teaching , training, doctrine helps a person be adequate for every good work. AMEN.

Those things are what they are, scripture HELPS, Profitable.



James 1
2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

I want to start a new denomination, the motto will be "PATIENCE ALONE"


According to scripture I just need that patience and endurance......I'll be perfect lacking in nothing.
That's a lot more then your case for scripture.

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan, could you post your picture? I want to enter your picture in my dictionary for the entry "crass".

Sorry, your right.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Sorry, your [sic] right.

It's not even how well you pray fast; it's WHOM YOU PRAY TO.
Luke 11:2. 'So He said to them, "When you pray, say, 'Our Father.........'"'

 

[Yeshua1]

All you are doing is making claims with your A, B, C, and D exhortations. I say the One Universal Church is the final authority, with the power given to it by Jesus Christ himself to do so. Everything else, done by everyone else, are just various interpretations of the Scriptures, thus in reality setting themselves up as the final authority.

Jesus NEVER said that the "universal church" would be given the authority to to decide what the Bible teaches to us...

Jesus tied that authority into Himself, the Prophets/Apostles of God, and that final authority would be in the written word of the lord...

the true Church of christ would be all of us sinners who have been saved by grace of God since time of Christ, and ALL have us have been given the holy spirit, and it is HIS task to teach and instruct us as to what the scriptures teach to us, NOT some church pontificating as to the doctrines and practices of God!

Do you hold then as the JW wouldm that one cannot stay with just the Bible and trust in the Spirit leading and guidance, as they would kead to spieirual darkness, so need a church to say what is right and wrong?