The Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Darrell C]

Actually, you should have, because it's a stupid argument.

Its not a stupid argument, it is just the only reasonable conclusion one can make unless they want to say Isaac was born again before he was born.

As already pointed out to you, only Jesus's disciples, those born again, would have heeded his instructions.

So are you amillennial?

How exactly do you expect to discuss the timing of the Rapture is you are? Could you make a concise sttatement as to what view you take, please? Amil, Premil...what?

There's a number other problems with you argument, but I'll leave it at that one point.

That's a good decision on your part, because you will not win that argument.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

A passage that speaks about the Tribulation itself is more relevant to the Tribulation than those passages that don't mention it, don't you think?

In part, but the two problems you are faced with is that...

1. This is a discussion concerning the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, not the Tribulation;

2. The passages that I quoted are in fact related to the Tribulation, thus relevant to the discussion;

3. The passage you give as more relevant...has nothing to do with the Rapture itself.

When the Bible says Jesus his talking to his "disciples" about the Tribulation, rational people understand that Jesus is talking to Christians. For umpteenth time, only believers in Jesus would heed his warnings and instructions. Jesus, speaking to his followers, uses word "you" over and over not "jews". The only question, do you believe Jesus, or not?

And when Christ spoke to them...

...they were not Christians.

They were not trusting Christ for their salvation.

They did not even believe He arose from the Grave...after He arose:


Mark 16:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Now if you can tell me why you would think that those who are not trusting in Christ as their Savior, and have not received the Eternal Indwelling are Christians, then I will be happy to look at your doctrine.

So explain this.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

There you go spamming verses that don't support you.

Spamming?

Shall I forego using the same Scripture because you think it is spamming? lol

Seems to me someone is looking to make friends.

If you want to show how the Scripture quoted does not support my view, perhaps you might actually return to the discussion. So far I have seen the typical reaction of someone that has his doctrine being undermined and they have no ability to defend their doctrine and address the points made.

You believe Christians will be removed before the tribulation.

100%.

And I have only begun in showing you, from Scripture...why this is the only reasonable view to take.

You probably believe the Holy Spirit will also be removed.

False arguments so soon?

Really?

Well, let me make this concise: God is omnipresent, how then shall He be "removed from the World?"

How about addressing what I have said, Smyth, and leave false arguments you think you can debate out of it.

You'll lose that discussion as well.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Yet, you believe people will come to faith in the Tribulation, without preachers and the HS.

I have never suggested this, lol.

Do you see how you created a false argument and then run with it?

You are like a couple other members that debate within their own arguments and forget to address what I actually say.

Is this how you arrive at doctrinal conclusion also?

That's unbiblical and insane.

I would agree, aren't you sorry you suggested it?

And, it's IRRELEVANT.

Totally agree with you here, Smyth.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

As it was with the First Temple, it's whatever thing that causes the Temple to be destroyed.

Well, I gave you Old Testament Prophecy that is relevant, and mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.

What does it say, Smyth. How is it relevant?

But, this is IRRELEVANT.

Totally agree.

The issue is the timing of the Rapture.

And so far...what exactly have you said about the timing of the Rapture?

Isn't the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20 after the Millennium? How does that push the Rapture to before the Tribulation?

The concept of the Great Tribulation comes from the Olivet Discorse. The Great Tribulation and context can be found in Mark 13:14-27. Here we see Jesus instructing his followers how to handle the Tribulation, because they'll go through it.

So far we have you talking about the Great White Throne which is not mentioned in the OP, and not speaking about what is mentioned...the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which is found in Matthew 25 and follows the Olivet Discourse.

Secondly, we see that for some reason you feel that Mark 13 is the place to go to gain an understanding of the Great Tribulation.

Third, that this must be referring to Christ's followers who are Christians.

Fourth...that Christians will go through the Great Tribulation.

So let me ask you...are you saying that there will be unbelievers who enter into the Kingdom of God? Into the Millennial Kingdom?

This conflicts with Christ's teaching because He states no man who is not born again will enter the Kingdom of God, and many of His teachings refer to that Kingdom which is clearly the Kingdom promised to Israel, which, if it is not fulfilled, has God reneging on His promise to Israel.

That is the Kingdom the disciples ask about here:


Acts 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


So what I have presented so far is simply to get the discussion started. Do you want to discuss the timing of the Rapture...or not?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

We not focused on your disbelief of other biblical truths.

When you can show disbelief on my part I will be glad to discuss it with you.

Until then, perhaps you might try showing why your view is correct, and mine wrong.

What does it matter what the Abomination of Desolation is, in regards to the topic?

It matters a great deal.

We can set the timing of the end of the Tribulation to Daniel's Prophecy. Daniel makes it clear that the Antichrist "confirms a covenant for one week," and in the middle of that week...causes sacrifice and oblation to end. What that resents, Smyth, is not a picture of Christians worshiping God...but Temple Service.

Who is that related to?

What Covenant was relevant to Daniel's People?

Just basic information, Smyth, and all of it...

...relevant to the timing of the Rapture.

Aside from the absurdity of the doctrine of people coming to Christ without being led by either Christians or the HS in your absurd concept of the Tribulation, Jesus' instructions to his followers to escape the Tribulation comes too late for those imagined converts within the Tribulation.

?

I can see how you confuse yourself by presenting a false argument and embracing it, but you will have to explain what you mean in regards to the Lord's instructions coming too late for "imagined converts within the Tribulation."


God bless.

 

[Smyth]

1. This is a discussion concerning the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, not the Tribulation;

You continually quote verse that have nothing to with the Rapture or the Tribulation.

2. The passages that I quoted are in fact related to the Tribulation, thus relevant to the discussion;

No, your verses are not related to the Tribulation.

3. The passage you give as more relevant...has nothing to do with the Rapture itself.

The passage I referenced shows many times over that Christians will go through the Tribulation. That refutes the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Drop the BS and do the math.

And when Christ spoke to them...

...they were not Christians.

They were not trusting Christ for their salvation.

They were Christ's followers, they were Christians. They might have lacked some understanding, but they were still Christians.

Mark 16:9-14

...
So explain this.

Explain? It's your perverse obsession with verses that have nothing to do with the Tribulation or the Rapture.

 

[Darrell C]

You continually quote verse that have nothing to with the Rapture or the Tribulation.

Quote one verse I have quoted that does not have to do with the Rapture or the Tribulation.

Can you do that?

No, your verses are not related to the Tribulation.

Just quote one.

I promise you, the response will be concise.

The passage I referenced shows many times over that Christians will go through the Tribulation. That refutes the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

And it is true...Christians will go through the Tribulation, because everyone saved within the Tribulation will be Christians.

But...the Church will not go through the Tribulation.

And if you would actually discuss the issue...you would come to learn that.

Drop the BS and do the math.

No need to be vulgar.

Perhaps foul language is acceptable to you, but it has no place in a Christian Doctrinal Discussion and Debate Forum from someone claiming to represent Christ.

So at this point I would just ask for one verse I have presented that you do not see as relevant to the Rapture or the Tribulation.


God bless.

 

[Smyth]

I have never suggested this, lol.

You should try responding in complete thoughts. It might help you think in complete thoughts. It would also allow readers of you quotes to know what you're talking about (not to suggest that you do know what your'e talking about).

You have never suggested that people in the Tribulation will be saved without Christians to lead them to Christ and without the Holy Spirit? It's your belief that the Christian be removed form the world before the Tribulation, therefor they won't be here to share Christianity with the world. Your brothren in the lie of Pretrib Rapture also say the Holy Spirit will be removed from the world. You should ask them how people are saved without the Holy Spirit. But, you'll probably get a meaningless, incoherent and rambling reply.

 

[Darrell C]

You should try responding in complete thoughts.

I did, and apparently that confused you.

Now where is the quote of the Verse that is not relevant to the Rapture or the Tribulation?

Have to get going, so if you are going to meet this challenge you can present it now, or I can get to it when I get back.


Continued...

 

[Smyth]

Spamming?

Shall I forego using the same Scripture because you think it is spamming? lol

At best, your Bible quotes are like a Calculus *teacher explaining that 2+2=4 to his class. Yes, 2+2+4 is fundamental and critical to Calculus, but you're just cluttering up you posts with verses that we all know, or at least I know. At worst, your quoting verses that either do not support you or that you haven't shown to support you. (*not to imply that you're qualified to teach calculus, or the theological equivalent thereof. Your verse spamming suggests that 2+2=4 is your math level.)

 

[Darrell C]

It might help you think in complete thoughts.

Look, I know my posts were short, but it is pretty clear they are complete enough in themselves to help you understand.

It would also allow readers of you quotes to know what you're talking about (not to suggest that you do know what your'e talking about).

What I have said has been clear enough.

The fact that you confuse the Great White Throne with the Sheep and Goat Judgment is not really my fault, Smyth.

You have never suggested that people in the Tribulation will be saved without Christians to lead them to Christ and without the Holy Spirit?

I never commented on that at all.

You did.

What I said is that there will be no Christians entering into the Tribulation, and the only reasonable way that men will be saved is...

...the same way they are saved today: by the Ministry of the Comforter.

Look, if you want to debate the views other people have, start a thread and have at it. But you said you wanted to discuss the Rapture with me...

...so address the views I give, not arguments you think you can debate.

And just so you know, 2 Thessalonians does not teach that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world, lol. It teaches that "He that restrains will be taken out of...

...the way."

Believe me, I can debate the tired arguments you think you have, that you would like to impose on me...better than you. Believe that.


Continued...

 

[Smyth]

We can set the timing of the end of the Tribulation to Daniel's Prophecy. Daniel makes it clear that the Antichrist "confirms a covenant for one week," and in the middle of that week...causes sacrifice and oblation to end. What that resents, Smyth, is not a picture of Christians worshiping God...but Temple Service.

What does the identity of the Abomination that causes Desolation have to do with the timing of the Rapture? Yeah, the Temple is destroyed in the middle of the Tribulation, so what? All you posts are incoherent.

 

[Darrell C]

It's your belief that the Christian be removed form the world before the Tribulation, therefor they won't be here to share Christianity with the world.

Christians do not save people, Smyth.

God does.

Your brothren in the lie of Pretrib Rapture also say the Holy Spirit will be removed from the world.

I will agree there are some that teach the Pre-Tribulation Rapture quite erroneously.

But at least they are on the right track.

You should ask them how people are saved without the Holy Spirit.

Why would I do that?

That is not even relevant to anything I said.

What is likely is that you probably understood those antagonists as well as you are displaying your understanding of what I have said.

Go figure.

But, you'll probably get a meaningless, incoherent and rambling reply.

If could just get a reply that was relevant to the OP...that would be good enough.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

At best, your Bible quotes are like a Calculus *teacher explaining that 2+2=4 to his class. Yes, 2+2+4 is fundamental and critical to Calculus, but you're just cluttering up you posts with verses that we all know, or at least I know. At worst, your quoting verses that either do not support you or that you haven't shown to support you. (*not to imply that you're qualified to teach calculus, or the theological equivalent thereof. Your verse spamming suggests that 2+2=4 is your math level.)

?

Do you really think that saying they are irrelevant makes this reality?

Quote a verse, Smyth.

What does the identity of the Abomination that causes Desolation have to do with the timing of the Rapture? Yeah, the Temple is destroyed in the middle of the Tribulation, so what? All you posts are incoherent.

The references to Daniel were meant to point out that there is a difference between the Great White Throne and the Sheep and Goat Judgment. This is in response to your confusion concerning the Great White Throne Judgment. GO back and read it again and perhaps you might see the relevance to the first false argument you supplied.


God bless.

 

[Smyth]

The references to Daniel were meant to point out that there is a difference between the Great White Throne and the Sheep and Goat Judgment. This is in response to your confusion concerning the Great White Throne Judgment. GO back and read it again and perhaps you might see the relevance to the first false argument you supplied.

I don't see how any of this has to do with the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture. If you stuck to verses that are relevant, your theology would collapse.

"But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them" Jesus is talking to and about Christians when he instructs and warns them about the Tribulation. He's not talking to or about Jews. He's not talking about people who will be saved during the tribulation. He's talking about Christians who will enter and endure the Tribulation.

 

[Smyth]

Christians do not save people, Smyth.

Your brothren in false doctrine often teach that Christians sharing the Gospel is necessary step in the salvation for any individual. So, again, how do these people be saved in the Tribulation when there are no Christians to share the Gospel with them, and no Holy Spirit to bring them to Christ? Okay, you disagree with the majority of your camp in this detail. You'd do better to disagree with them about the whole pre-tribulation rapture.

The reason your camp invents conversion during the Tribulation (even when presumed conditions prohibit conversion, even when there no verse saying conversion will happening the Tribulation) is because the Bible tells us in each of the Gospels and in Revelation that Christians will be in the Tribulation. So, where'd those Christians come from? Answer: there was no Rapture to keep them from the Tribulation.

 

[beameup]

A passage that speaks about the Tribulation itself is more relevant to the Tribulation than those passages that don't mention it, don't you think?



When the Bible says Jesus his talking to his "disciples" about the Tribulation, rational people understand that Jesus is talking to Christians. For umpteenth time, only believers in Jesus would heed his warnings and instructions. Jesus, speaking to his followers, uses word "you" over and over not "jews". The only question, do you believe Jesus, or not?

You believe Christians will be removed before the tribulation. You probably believe the Holy Spirit will also be removed. Yet, you believe people will come to faith in the Tribulation, without preachers and the HS. That's unbiblical and insane. And, it's IRRELEVANT.

Many fail to embrace the concept that God has a plan for his people the Jews in the end-time and that there will be a "revival" among them which will be much like the opening chapters of Acts. I believe that Jesus was talking to his "little flock" of Jewish believers and, prior to His return, there will be another "flock" that will spread the Gospel. I do not endorse "Replacement Theology".

 

[Smyth]

Many fail to embrace the concept that God has a plan for his people the Jews in the end-time and that there will be a "revival" among them which will be much like the opening chapters of Acts.

The Bible and I disagree.

 

[beameup]

The Bible and I disagree.

I'm sorry to hear that you two disagree.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Romans 11:25-27