People leaving Church

[Iconoclast]

This post is so full of fiction it reeks.

Does the Bible say no one seeks God at any time? Nope - falsehood number 1.
Did anyone say those that left were "nice sinners?" Nope - falsehood number 2.
Did anyone say they were not really depraved? Nope - falsehood number 3.
Did anyone say they just needed a little information? Nope - falsehood number 4.
Did anyone say they only needed one verse? Nope - falsehood number 5.
Did anyone say God was waiting for them to show they had faith? Nope - falsehood number 6.

Then we get the myth that God does not credit the worthless faith of sinners as righteousness. Falsehood number 7.

Did anyone say God has not elected anyone? Nope - falsehood number 8
Did any of them say they left because of open theism? Nope - falsehood number 9.

Here we have it folks.......a denial of the truths of Mt.23 :13.....these nice sinners were.....seeking God......in their own way.....they were.nice sinners yet religious people not unlike this unnamed poster.....judge them....and hinder them from coming.....
Using his unnamed doctrines he beguiled unstable souls.....read that one verse again...it is magical....it over throws all the falsehoods thar are being offered here......just read that one verse over and over......do you see it yet!

 

[Van]

Repeating a falsehood shows irrationality.
Why is that nameless doctrine advocate desperately trying to change the subject? His mistaken doctrine denies people would seek God (they all hate God and run from light). So these who had seemed to seek God and His righteousness demonstrate the falseness of his doctrine.

How are we supposed to stimulate others to love God and keep His commands? The churches from which they left would seem in need of such a discussion. Could discipleship be part of the answer?

When a person believes in the "name" of Christ, what is the idea. Name refers to what is known about Christ, i.e. Son of God, Messiah, Lamb of God, Savior, etc. Does His Name include all He commanded? Should it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Repeating a falsehood shows irrationality.
Why is that nameless doctrine advocate desperately trying to change the subject? His mistaken doctrine denies people would seek God (they all hate God and run from light). So these who had seemed to seek God and His righteousness demonstrate the falseness of his doctrine.

How are we supposed to stimulate others to love God and keep His commands? The churches from which they left would seem in need of such a discussion. Could discipleship be part of the answer?

When a person believes in the "name" of Christ, what is the idea. Name refers to what is known about Christ, i.e. Son of God, Messiah, Lamb of God, Savior, etc. Does His Name include all He commanded? Should it?

More deflection, obfuscation, smoke and mirrors.....Mt 23 is clear...they were coming.....God chose the lamb, His lamb.....
Just read it folks.....that one verse says it all.....Notice how it is avoided!

 

[Van]

Note the effort to change the subject from why are three times as many people leaving Mainline churches as leaving Evangelicals, to an attack on me.

The mistaken doctrines of the dark ages are hindering evangelism big time.

How are we supposed to stimulate others to love God and keep His commands? The churches from which they left would seem in need of such a discussion. Could discipleship be part of the answer?

When a person believes in the "name" of Christ, what is the idea. Name refers to what is known about Christ, i.e. Son of God, Messiah, Lamb of God, Savior, etc. Does His Name include all He commanded? Should it?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Repeating a falsehood shows irrationality.

Then stop. You're the only one doing this.

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.[Romans 3:10-11]

Show us Van where it says there are ppl seeking God outside the drawing of Christ.

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 Corinthians 2:14]

Show us Van where those without the Spirit of God can understand the sincere milk of the gospel. Your extrabiblical stance(s) do you no favors.

 

[Van]

Did anyone say people put their faith in Christ without the drawing of God.
Does Romans 3:10-11 say no one ever seeks God?

Show us Van where those without the Spirit of God can understand the sincere milk of the gospel.

LOL - as if I had not done so time after time. Here it is again.

1 Corinthians 3: 1-3 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?​

Therefore men of flesh can understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual meat. So the things of the Spirit that natural men cannot understand are spiritual meat, 1 Cor. 2:14.

There is absolute no scriptural support anywhere in the bible for total spiritual inability. Limited, yes.

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, why are three times as many people from Mainstream churches leaving than from Evangelical churches? What can be do to stimulate love for God and observing all Christ commanded?

When a person believes in the "name" of Christ, what is the idea. Name refers to what is known about Christ, i.e. Son of God, Messiah, Lamb of God, Savior, etc. Does His Name include all He commanded? Should it?

 

[JonC]

If it's ok, I'll take issue with the last one being used in reference to Free Grace Theology.

I'm a Free Grace proponent, and I can assure you that praying a prayer to be saved is a deplorable, despicable "notch on the bedpost" type of evangelism which is ineffective at best, and a complete heresy imho.

Those who advocate this "voodoo of you do" works prayer are no different from those who advocate baptismal regeneration.

I agree. Free Grace Theology does not include praying a prayer to be saved ... except, of course, as straw-men arguments (or via misunderstanding) from opponents. But I'll have to add that the flip side is also true. Those who hold to Lordship Salvation do not believe in a works based salvation except as a straw-man argument (or via misunderstanding) from the opponents.


When I read the post, I had the exact same thought as your conclusion - it is no different from those who advocate baptismal regeneration.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,

Repeating a falsehood shows irrationality.

Interesting....so you would say that if someone repeated error over and over.....they show irrationality.......in other words the person was mentally disturbed???
So if they repeat a verse or 7 verses over and over....in every thread no matter what the topic is....they bring up the same verses again and again....we can say they are part of the lunatic fringe

I wonder if we know anyone who uses mt 23 over and over....for all threads???

 

[Internet Theologian]

...an attack on me.

You keep repeating this falsehood.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is absolutely possible.

Please don't misunderstand that to mean that it's acceptable, or encouraged, or taken lightly.

But Jesus said some would receive the word, which is a euphemism for believing the gospel, and would be so ensnated by the world that they become unfruitful.

What do you think happens to those whom you believe are Christians yet do not live like one during the Millennium?

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, why are three times as many people from Mainstream churches leaving than from Evangelical churches? What can be do to stimulate love for God and observing all Christ commanded?

When a person believes in the "name" of Christ, what is the idea. Name refers to what is known about Christ, i.e. Son of God, Messiah, Lamb of God, Savior, etc. Does His Name include all He commanded? Should it?

 

[StefanM]

Returning to topic, why are three times as many people from Mainstream churches leaving than from Evangelical churches? What can be do to stimulate love for God and observing all Christ commanded?

When a person believes in the "name" of Christ, what is the idea. Name refers to what is known about Christ, i.e. Son of God, Messiah, Lamb of God, Savior, etc. Does His Name include all He commanded? Should it?

Mainline churches are soaked in dead liberalism and/or rank apostasy. Some evangelicals remain, but they don't control the agenda. The United Methodist Church could be one (partial) exception. There is still a battle for the agenda in that church because of the overseas churches and their tendency to be more conservative.

I'm not sure where you are going with the second question, but I'm reminded of the Jewish tradition of saying "HaShem" (Hebrew for "the name") in reference to God.

 

[Van]

Where I was trying to go is the assertion that the Name of Christ includes "all He commanded." Thus when someone believes on His Name, they have at least a working knowledge of what He taught. While it is true no one can keep all He commanded, it is also true we are to strive to do so. There is a lot more to biblical Christianity than what those leaving mentioned, indicating they were never disciplined. The ground was not tilled. They had no deep root within themselves.

 

[StefanM]

Where I was trying to go is the assertion that the Name of Christ includes "all He commanded." Thus when someone believes on His Name, they have at least a working knowledge of what He taught. While it is true no one can keep all He commanded, it is also true we are to strive to do so. There is a lot more to biblical Christianity than what those leaving mentioned, indicating they were never disciplined. The ground was not tilled. They had no deep root within themselves.

God saves many who only have very basic knowledge. It's not a requirement to know much, only the basics. God will provide those basics on the journey to his providing faith.

 

[Van]

We are not talking about those God saved. We are talking about those God chose not to save. Why did He not credit their faith as righteousness? Was it because they had no root?

If you are say God provides faith supernaturally, such as with irresistible grace, that view is bogus. Blaming God for our ineffective ministry is without merit.

 

[StefanM]

We are not talking about those God saved. We are talking about those God chose not to save. Why did He not credit their faith as righteousness? Was it because they had no root?

If you are say God provides faith supernaturally, such as with irresistible grace, that view is bogus. Blaming God for our ineffective ministry is without merit.

You can say it's bogus all day. That doesn't make a bit of difference one way or the other.

 

[Van]

You can disregard the scriptural evidence I have provided countless times to demonstrate it is bogus. But OTOH, you did not offer any evidence of support from scripture.

If only people under the compulsion of irresistible grace sought God, how do you explain those seeking God but failing to achieve righteousness? Romans 9:30-33

If only people under the compulsion of irresistible grace sought God, how do you explain the rich young ruler? Mark 10:17-27

If only people under the compulsion of irresistible grace sought God, how do you explain the men entering the kingdom being blocked? Matthew 23:13.

Bottom line, the grace that draws us to Christ is resistible.

 

[StefanM]

I don't care to debate that here. We have a forum for it, and, quite frankly, it's tiresome.

 

[Van]

I am fine with that.

Back to topic, why are people who once professed Christ leaving the church?

Because they had no root within themselves. Because those who brought them the gospel failed to till the ground, or planted but did not water?

What can we do to stimulate love for God and observing all Christ commanded?

When a person believes in the "name" of Christ, what is the idea. Name refers to what is known about Christ, i.e. Son of God, Messiah, Lamb of God, Savior, etc. Does His Name include all He commanded? Should it?