Featured Introduction & BIG question: Can I be both Catholic & Baptist?

then there would be no need to "confect the body blood, soul and divinity" of Christ in the bread if there is no additional sacrifice. Christ already had body, blood, soul and divinity on the cross 2000 years ago... why do you need to "confect more now" if you are not engaged in a sacrifice of any kind?

 

Only in your opinion. You are the one who rejects the history of the Church and it's teachings throughout the centuries. From the Apostles, to the early Fathers of the One Universal Christian Church, to this very day you ignore and reject what God has brought about.

 

We Christians are called to completely destroy All Evil. MURDER of sinners IS a sin.

To destroy evil or even a heretic does not mean murder.

We have CHURCH teaching says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

If you turn someone from a false teaching you have utterly destroyed a heretic.


The council specifies Jews and Muslims.

• Canon 67: Jews may not charge extortionate interest.

• Canons 68: Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress to enable them to be distinguished from Christians so that no Christian shall come to marry them ignorant of who they are.[11]

• Canon 69: Declares Jews disqualified from holding public offices, incorporating into ecclesiastical law a decree of the Holy Christian Empire.[11]

• Canon 70: Takes measures to prevent converted Jews from returning to their former belief.[11]

None of these rules would be relevant if the command was simply to kill them all.



What is a Heretic? You have to be properly baptized, start error teaching, excommunicated for 1 years, still willfully in error, and then you are a bonafide heretic. Once you are a heretic you can't hold office ect, ect.


Jews and Muslims are not heretics. We can use a word called INFIDEL.

Look up what these things mean. You can google ARE JEWS HERETICS? and you are bound to get an explanation that Jews are not baptized into the faith to qualify them as heretics.

 

which lead to the killing of over 25 million Christians by the RCC in the dark ages? (even by confession of your own Pope Benedict)

how did that happen?

 

We are sinners and the failure to be obedient to church teaching. Church teaching is THOU SHALT NOT KILL.


Now I'd like for you to provide some more information.

You said:

"-- 25 million killed by Pope Benedict's own count - as he admitted that more than half were not in his report.
So then that council calling for the "extermination" of Jews and heretics - is truly a crime against humanity -- nothing at all infallible about it."


How did Catholics manage to kill 25 million Jews and Heretics, in a Total European population of 62 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography

Are you saying a majority of Europe was Jewish?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population_comparisons


You are killing more people then there actually are alive at the time.

And then your not even taking into account the real killer in middle ages, the black plague.

 

Isn't it entirely possible that your own church teaching about an infallible church council such as LATERAN IV - issuing the command to "exterminate heretics" -- was taken by some honest sincere Catholics as the 'right message' when they killed those 25 million christians?

I guess the Bible statement that they did it over a 1,260 year period of time has to be considered as well.

In any case - you could ask your own Pope Benedict - he is still around you know.

Is it your claim that the 25 million Christians killed by the RCC were all Jews???

Your own pope Benedict did not claim that such was the case for his 25million number.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Are you or your faith tradition fallible or infallible when you interpret the Scriptures?

 

Bob you've stated an accusation, that in the middle ages Catholics killed 25 millions Jews under a teaching concerning heretics. Despite you having to be baptized catholic to be heretics, Despite European population numbering around 60 million, despite Jewish population numbering 2 to 8 million WORLD WIDE a fraction for Europe.

Now Ellen G White said we are innocent, That the catholic church didn't kill anyone in the middle ages.

Would you like to see the source where Ellen G White says we are innocent? Just like I would like to see the source that 25 million Jews were killed in a world.

You are just throwing empty accusations.

 

Wycliffe, Huss, Jerome, Luther, Calvin -- all of them "baptized catholics" so why in the world would I argue that the 25 million that your own Pope Benedict claims that the RCC killed - could not include baptized Catholics??

As for the Waldenses, Albigensis, Huguenots etc all being "baptized catholics" -- well I doubt it ... in fact we ALL doubt that all of them were "baptized catholic".

My argument is that circling the wagons around an ecumenical council like LATERAN IV and declaring its decrees to be 'infallible' - would mean that the "extermination decrees" are infallible - which would make crimes against humanity infallible -- which we all know is a bad idea.

 

Wishful thinking??

 

I am infallible -- I cannot err. So then when I tell you that something that the RCC ever did was wrong - well then you don't need to study history or the Bible to "see if that is so" -- just take my word for it.

(I am trying accommodate your preference at that point)

 

You know, I did some checking and I could not find the word "exterminate" in Canon 3 of the Lateran Council IV.

This is what I have found. "We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy, orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above. We condemn all heretics, whatever names they may go under. They have different faces indeed but their tails are tied together inasmuch as they are alike in their pride. Let those condemned be handed over to the secular authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment. Clerics are first to be degraded from their orders. The goods of the condemned are to be confiscated, if they are lay persons, and if clerics they are to be applied to the churches from which they received their stipends. Those who are only found suspect of heresy are to be struck with the sword of anathema, unless they prove their innocence by an appropriate purgation, having regard to the reasons for suspicion and the character of the person. Let such persons be avoided by all until they have made adequate satisfaction. If they persist in the excommunication for a year, they are to be condemned as heretics. Let secular authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, if they wish to be reputed and held to be faithful, to take publicly an oath for the defense of the faith to the effect that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith. Thus whenever anyone is promoted to spiritual or temporal authority, he shall be obliged to confirm this article with an oath. If however a temporal lord, required and instructed by the church, neglects to cleanse his territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with the bond of excommunication by the metropolitan and other bishops of the province. If he refuses to give satisfaction within a year, this shall be reported to the supreme pontiff so that he may then declare his vassals absolved from their fealty to him and make the land available for occupation by Catholics so that these may, after they have expelled the heretics, possess it unopposed and preserve it in the purity of the faith -- saving the right of the suzerain provided that he makes no difficulty in the matter and puts no impediment in the way. The same law is to be observed no less as regards those who do not have a suzerain"

So I read the words "expel" and "cleanse" to mean - to remove from the area concerned, no? I am not seeing the word "exterminate" as you claim. So, where did you get your copy?


The above was found from The History Guide - Lectures on Ancient and Medieval History. Fourth Lateran Council (1215) Canon 3 - On Heresy

 

Accuser.

Source please. You are just throwing accusations without proof.

Heres another thread where you claim Catholics killed 50 million, where there hardly 60 million people in all of Europe.
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/rcc-lateran-iv-command-to-exterminate.93339/


The Latin word extermino which is used is not identical to English exterminate

Ex - meaning out of Terminus -- Boundry


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extermino

 

You ninja'd me!

 

We get to take a crack at them SDA's right?

Hey bob in which race of men is obvious we are amalgamation with animals?
From Wikipedia:
"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."[53]
--Ellen G White.
"Now we have ever supposed that anybody that was called a man, was considered a human being. The vision speaks of all these classes as races of men; yet in the face of this plain declaration, they foolishly assert that the visions teach that some men are not human beings! But does any one deny the general statement contained in the extract given above? They do not. If they did, they could easily be silenced by a reference to such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some tribes of the Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of our own country.. Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they affirm, to tell just where the human ends and the animal begins."
--- Uriah Smith, SDA church leader, friend of Ellen G White


Testimonies for the Church, vol. 8, Page 269

"Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one." -- Ellen G White.


Bob, here your Holy Infallible Prophet wrote in your holy scripture, There is no trinity.

This also means you worship the disciples. Because they unity between Christ and disciples is one purpose, mind and in character not person. In the same way God and Christ are one.

 

The horrors of the RCC can be depicted in what Francis Xavier did at Goa in India.
Read some of the accounts for which he and his followers are accountable.

Once the Christian missionaries arrived, the religious practices of the Portuguese turned oppressive after an initial period of indifference and all Hindu temples were ordered closed in 1541. Over 350 temples were destroyed by the year 1559 and even the private idol worship was banned. When Francis Xavier, the famous missionary demanded the setting up of Goa Inquisition, a religious tribunal for suppression of heresy and punishment of heretics, things got worse.

The Inquisition set up in 1560 was notorious for using brutal torture and lasted till 1812 and this was the golden age where the power of life and death of ordinary people was held by a Christian priest. If people were unable to pass 'act of faith' (autos - da - Fe), they were stretched on the rack and also some people were burnt on the stake.

The Goan Inquisition was documented in bestseller Guardian of Dawn by Richard Zimler who called it a 'machinery of death' - the most merciless and cruel ever developed. Dismembering the children limb by limb in front of their parents whose eyes were taped open till they agreed to convert was particularly an effective method.

On the faintest suspicion of heresy, thousand died during the 252 years of the Inquisition. If a small idol was kept at home or a non-Christian prayer whispered, anyone could be arrested and tortured in special Inquisition prisons. It is estimated that by the end of 17th century the ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Muslims was complete as there was less than 20,000 that were non - Christian out of the total Goan population of 2, 50,000.

http://www.goaholidayhomes.com/information/inquisition-horrors-in-goa.html

The atrocities committed by this man, later canonized as a saint, cannot be described for the cruelty and the depths of inhuman vile wickedness that mankind could ever imagine. This is not the work of a Christian but of devils. And yet the RCC proudly boasts of forcibly making these "pagan Hindus" into Christians by "baptizing" them with the same option that ISIS gives today, except that ISIS is more humane.

 

Wow.....last time I checked......I Thought we WERE the PAGANS!

 

Here we just state objective historic fact.

Wycliffe, Huss, Jerome, Luther, Calvin -- all of them "baptized catholics" so why in the world would I argue that the 25 million that your own Pope Benedict claims that the RCC killed - could not include baptized Catholics??

As for the Waldenses, Albigensis, Huguenots etc all being "baptized catholics" -- well I doubt it ... in fact we ALL doubt that all of them were "baptized catholic".

My argument is that circling the wagons around an ecumenical council like LATERAN IV and declaring its decrees to be 'infallible' - would mean that the "extermination decrees" are infallible - which would make crimes against humanity infallible -- which we all know is a bad idea.

Sadly you imagine that we will be fooled by your "all in one year" hypothesis - when in fact the Bible says the killing takes place over 1260 years. Who is supposed to be fooled by that?

me??

Try another tactic. something that is believable.

Hint - it is your own Pope Benedict claiming that the RCC killed that 25 million according to RC records AND it is his own statement that this is in fact under-reporting since more than half of the records are not being reported in that 25 million!!

Tell that to the 25 million killed by the RCC.

Tell that to your own Jesuit university (Fordham) that translates the LATERAN IV document for us.

Please be serious.

 

In this example it is the Jesuit Universith - FORDHAM that tells us about the "EXTERMINATE" element of Lateran IV.

 

Just where our Fordham Jesuit friends are happy to use the term "Exterminate" - our Adonia friend is more comfortable with the Ruwandan Ethinic "cleansing" concept - of "Cleanse" for the "heretical filth" as the Catholic church called their own protesting Catholics.

Adonia's version of the Fordham's word "exterminate" translated from LATERAN IV
"however a temporal lord, required and instructed by the church, neglects to cleanse his territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with the bond of excommunication"