Jesus cried that it is accomplished/finished when he died, so that should be the position taken in this discussion, for if he was wrong on that point?
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Introduction & BIG question: Can I be both Catholic & Baptist?
- Thread starter Trinity47
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Jesus cried that it is accomplished/finished when he died, so that should be the position taken in this discussion, for if he was wrong on that point?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you're getting at with your statement.
Yeshua1, your post is missing a bracket on the quote so it didn't come out well but ill paste it here
"Again, what extra grace is needed to improve upon the Grace in the death of Jesus as a full atonement for sins?
God accepted His sacrifice by raising him from the dead, so why does the church of Rome spit in his face and claim that it was good, just not good enough?"
This is a piece of cake to answer. There is like 150 verses against this. Keep in mind It has been the devils doctrine and goal to excuse sinning from the beginning. Genesis 3 "You surely will not die".
So many verses......lets do this one. The situation is Jesus Christ had died on the cross and the apostles were hiding, Here RESSURECTED Jesus Presents himself. I'm not going to say a word.......I am however going to pull a verse from there. AND then you are going to explain it to me. Because I am not saying nothing, Its you and Jesus.
John 20
19So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Since jesus saw and knew that his death was the full atonement required by God for sinners to be able to get saved now, then why would we need to have ANY additional sacrifices as in the Mass for sins?
And by what measure did the Apostles remit/forgiven sins though?
.the GOSPEL of jesus, for when sinners believed unto Jesus and were saved, they did pronounce forgivesness of sins, but rejection of Him meant retention of sins...
NO Apostle EVER declared that simmers were saved/lost a[art from the person of jesus Christ!
I didn't say nothing brother, what are you trying to say?
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Saved means saved, and it is once for all. It is not dependent upon following, agreeing to, adhering to, believing after salvation all the false dogmas, attending mass, not committing 'mortal sin' and other false teachings of the RCC.
It's an interesting thing to behold RC's who act like none of these things are true, that is, that none of these things need to be followed in order to be saved, when in fact the opposite is true. RC dogma must be believed, or there is no salvation. In RC there is no salvation outside of her, that is, there is no salvation in Christ if that salvation is outside of her, according to her apostate teachings.
Christ saves, not the RCC. The RCC had to step in when she found out that in Scriptures, in Christ alone, in Faith alone (true conversion) there was salvation. There was no way the authorities were going to give that a bye, they needed to rush in and control all that and in so doing have denied the Gospel.
It's an interesting thing to behold RC's who act like none of these things are true, that is, that none of these things need to be followed in order to be saved, when in fact the opposite is true. RC dogma must be believed, or there is no salvation. In RC there is no salvation outside of her, that is, there is no salvation in Christ if that salvation is outside of her, according to her apostate teachings.
Christ saves, not the RCC. The RCC had to step in when she found out that in Scriptures, in Christ alone, in Faith alone (true conversion) there was salvation. There was no way the authorities were going to give that a bye, they needed to rush in and control all that and in so doing have denied the Gospel.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Use spellcheck.
To clear up the record. I never said Baptists, (or Protestants) killed the same number of Catholics as Catholics killed others, but they killed Catholics, many Catholics and that is true.
Perhaps at this point, in this day and age we should use the "was" instead of "is" as in "is a murderous organization". We Catholics do not do nor condone the killing of anyone, not grown people or little lives growing in the womb. Please stop lying about us.
There is no additional sacrifice at the Mass. There was but one sacrifice 2000 years ago, the Mass as I am sure you have heard before, is a re-presentation of that sacrifice. Time is transcended and we are there on Calvary at the foot of the Cross, what a great thing that this happens so all mankind can be at the most momentous event in human history.
If there was binding Catholic teaching to kill Jews it would have been worst NAZI holocaust and we would have heard about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Council_of_the_Lateran
- Canon 67: Jews may not charge extortionate interest.
- Canons 68: Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress to enable them to be distinguished from Christians so that no Christian shall come to marry them ignorant of who they are.[11]
Canon 70: Takes measures to prevent converted Jews from returning to their former belief.[11]
- Canon 69: Declares Jews disqualified from holding public offices, incorporating into ecclesiastical law a decree of the Holy Christian Empire.[11]
In addition, it threatened excommunication to those who supplied ships, arms, and other war materials to the Saracens.
Effective application of the decrees varied according to local conditions and customs.[3]
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Important point here is......why would any of those laws apply if you were required by "church teaching" to kill them?
Also none of this is ex cathedra, It was setup for crusades.
Bob give me the canon law verse or numbers for killing Jews.
I went looking for Jewish that keep a good history of anti-Semitism.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0012_0_11919.html
The fourth Lateran (12th Ecumenical) Council was summoned in 1215 by Pope Innocent III to call for a crusade and to combat various heresies. A delegation of Jews from southern France attempted to ensure that no anti-Jewish decisions were taken, but the Council issued four important regulations concerning the Jews. Canon 67 states that Jews must be prevented from exacting immoderate usury from Christians, and also that Jews must pay tithes on property formerly owned by Christians. Canon 68 complains that in many places Christians, Jews, and Saracens are outwardly indistinguishable, so that occasionally, "by mistake, Christians mix with Jewish or Saracen women" and vice versa. Non-Christians must therefore be compelled to dress differently from Christians (see also Jewish *badge ). It is alleged there that this is also laid down in the Mosaic law. Jews are not to appear in public at Easter, or on days of Christian lamentation, because they are in the habit of dressing up and railing at Christians on such occasions, nor may they blaspheme against the name of Jesus in any other way. The next canon prohibits Jews from holding public office, and the last insists that converts to Christianity must desist from Jewish observances. An appendix is concerned with the proposed crusade. It lays down in passing that Jews must be compelled to remit interest on debts owed to them by those who take the cross. That all the topics mentioned here reappear in subsequent legislation is a measure of the comparative inefficacy of the Council's decisions.
You would think, A Jewish website who's job was to somewhat keep a grudge score of Christians acts against Jews, WOULD MENTION church TEACHING to KILL JEWS.
But BOB.. No one is killing Jews today. You still murder with abortions. And I am not LYING. and your pride has to damn me a monster. You are looking for a monster? look in the mirror brother. Ask your SDA hospitals. Because you are murdering.
Bob I know your not for abortions. Do a tiny effort to look into it.
As Catholic Christians we should never deny the truth of mistakes made by the Catholic Church in the past. St. John Paul II The Great made this clear when he apologized for the many failings of the Catholic Church and among them are:
- The legal process on the Italian scientist and philosopher Galileo Galilei, himself a devout Catholic, around 1633 (31 October 1992).]
- Catholics' involvement with the African slave trade (9 August 1993).
- The Church's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation (May 1995, in the Czech Republic).
- The injustices committed against women, the violation of women's rights and for the historical denigration of women (29 May 1995, in a "letter to women").
- The inactivity and silence of many Catholics during the Holocaust (16 March 1998).
- For the execution of Jan Hus in 1415 (18 December 1999 in Prague). When John Paul II visited Prague in 1990s, he requested experts in this matter "to define with greater clarity the position held by Jan Hus among the Church's reformers, and acknowledged that "independently of the theological convictions he defended, Hus cannot be denied integrity in his personal life and commitment to the nation's moral education." It was another step in building a bridge between Catholics and Protestants
I agree, Even today Catholics are murdering, stealing, committing abortions. The laity isn't a 2nd class entity of the church. And its quite likely catholic clergy are committing wrongs as well.
All these things and the things you mentioned as I apologized previously we take responsibility.
That said it is our failure to obedience to church teaching, if every catholic obediently obeyed Catholic teaching, not one of those things or anything wrong done today would occur.
If the pope were to announce every one guilty of adultery is to be put to death, this would go against church teaching. If not only this but every single catholic agreed except for you, they would all be against church teaching, and it would be your duty to do what is right. Does that give you grounds to leave the church Jesus Christ instituted? No Jesus Christ is the head of this church, you might be outnumbered you are not out gunned, this is putting faith in God. The teaching stands unchanged.
If Jesus Christ commands you to leave, that's valid, If Jesus never said that was the church to begin with that's valid.
What doesn't work is my idea of a perfect quality ideal and attempt to find a match vs the genuine institution Jesus himself started.
If the genuine church Christ started is now a cardboard box ran by a drunk it is what it is, my advice is stick with Jesus trust in his choice, God loves an underdog, he will choose a child to defeat a giant.
If he tells you to be in a particular boat, I don't care if its ran by pirates, if it has leaks, or travelling in the wrong direction, its the right boat, you need to be the right you.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
-- 25 million killed by Pope Benedict's own count - as he admitted that more than half were not in his report.
So then that council calling for the "extermination" of Jews and heretics - is truly a crime against humanity -- nothing at all infallible about it.
The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp
CANON 3“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”
In that post we have the step for going forward to the point of saying "All that stuff in the past was truly evil - lets all agree to that and lets all commit that we will not let that happen again" ..
So then Lateran IV instead of "STILL being upheld as infallibly correct" -- is in fact a crime against humanity.
So also every Catholic and Protestant effort to torture or kill (exterminate) somebody just because they hold to an opposing opinion on doctrine. All of that sort of thing is totally alien to the NT. It is not a matter of older cultures being clueless - because the older culture of the NT Apostles was not at all about killing all the Jews and gentiles that opposed the doctrines of Christianity.
Rather all of that "kill and exterminate others" mentality sprang up after the Apostles died.
So then that council calling for the "extermination" of Jews and heretics - is truly a crime against humanity -- nothing at all infallible about it.
The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp
CANON 3“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”
In that post we have the step for going forward to the point of saying "All that stuff in the past was truly evil - lets all agree to that and lets all commit that we will not let that happen again" ..
So then Lateran IV instead of "STILL being upheld as infallibly correct" -- is in fact a crime against humanity.
So also every Catholic and Protestant effort to torture or kill (exterminate) somebody just because they hold to an opposing opinion on doctrine. All of that sort of thing is totally alien to the NT. It is not a matter of older cultures being clueless - because the older culture of the NT Apostles was not at all about killing all the Jews and gentiles that opposed the doctrines of Christianity.
Rather all of that "kill and exterminate others" mentality sprang up after the Apostles died.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Remember there were almost no Protestant religions - there was only Catholics "protesting" for the longest time. And that means - Catholics killing Catholics in all those exercises to "exterminate" others.
And in the case of Huss and Jerome we are talking about Catholic armies forcibly attacking an entire nation of Catholics - where some "thoughts" among those Catholics were of "protest".
What is worse is the poor plight of Catholics who could not be certain they were killing the right catholics -- at the time when you had THREE reigning POPEs all all three had successors and at least two of them had entire papal ARMIES going to war against each other - Catholics killing Catholics and all of them promise "more heaven" if they died killing fellow Catholics.
Where have we heard of that sort of mentality in modern times?
Hi T47,Going to bow out of this thread now, but thanks for all the thought-provoking conversation! I may come back and ask questions about scripture in the future.
Listen to both the preacher and the priest.
Study the bible.
Ask God for wisdom. James 1:5.
I am a former cradle Catholic and I was in a transition for about two years before I left the Catholic Church and went exclusively to Baptist churches.
HankD
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Utter nonsense and untrue and not a truthful reflection of the history and meaning of the mass.
Here is some documentation against your beloved mass, where it is documented (by your own sect) concerning the 'priests' ability to call down Christ from heaven (which is blasphemy) AND that Christ is also offered AGAIN thousands of times in this mass for offering, again, and again. All who want to know the truth and get the documented TRUE beliefs of apostate Rome, take the time to listen:
Sir, I quoted Jewish sources which would have LOVED for your version to be true.
Yet they don't say Lateran Council IV called for extermination of Jews.
Look them up. See what Jews say. I'm sure you can find dirt on Catholics Lateran IV simply is not it.
When Catholic Eucharist is consecrated it is not repeating the cross.
And the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus .
There is prophecy that needs fulfillment one way or another.
Malachi 1
7Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. 8And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts. 9And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts. 10Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand. 11For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
God's church has an Altar.
We don't offer bread, we don't offer sinners who just prayed a sinners prayer, no blind or lame.
We make sure to kindle a fire on his altar.
And 24/7 we burn incense and we offer a pure offering.
Now here is the dilemma or YOUR dilemma. You have to bring a sacrifice to God's Altar. It has to be done in EVERY place. All day long. Can't come from you, not your hand.
And absolutely ONLY Jesus Christ is the pure acceptable offering to God.
When Jesus says "DO THIS" that also means OFFER THIS.
When your up to the alter you have to offer Jesus Christ nothing else is acceptable.
He won't take bread.
Incense, Body and Blood of Jesus.
Not
Febreze, Crackers and Kool-aid
And the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus .
There is prophecy that needs fulfillment one way or another.
Malachi 1
7Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. 8And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts. 9And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts. 10Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand. 11For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
God's church has an Altar.
We don't offer bread, we don't offer sinners who just prayed a sinners prayer, no blind or lame.
We make sure to kindle a fire on his altar.
And 24/7 we burn incense and we offer a pure offering.
Now here is the dilemma or YOUR dilemma. You have to bring a sacrifice to God's Altar. It has to be done in EVERY place. All day long. Can't come from you, not your hand.
And absolutely ONLY Jesus Christ is the pure acceptable offering to God.
When Jesus says "DO THIS" that also means OFFER THIS.
When your up to the alter you have to offer Jesus Christ nothing else is acceptable.
He won't take bread.
Incense, Body and Blood of Jesus.
Not
Febreze, Crackers and Kool-aid
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Classic misdirection and obfuscation. Lateran IV calls for extermination - even by your own Jesuit Fordham confession on the history of it. And what is more it is followed by the inquisitions in various Catholic nations. Your own Pope says it was 25 million that were slain and that this number is likely less than half of the actual number.
So ... you found a "Jewish site" -- nice. The point was about the 'extermination' command in the council.
Are you still trying to defend "exterminate" as in "a good thing"????
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