And yet the Catholic Church has killed millions over the years who's consciences objected to its false doctrines?
And the Roman Catholic Church is not the body of Christ but is a Satanic counterfeit.
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Introduction & BIG question: Can I be both Catholic & Baptist?
- Thread starter Trinity47
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And the Roman Catholic Church is not the body of Christ but is a Satanic counterfeit.
Well I apologize for every murder man has ever committed even the Catholics. And if God held me responsible it would be true. Because with God there is nothing you can't do.
When a Baptist is killed for any reason I believe they killed one of us.
I am sorry and responsible for any evil even today.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Certainly it is a joke to say that all Catholics are going to hell. Can't take teaching like that too seriously.
Your point that Baptists in some cases tend to do better on the subject of Bible study than Catholic teachers - is a good one. Very reasonable observation.
I myself am from a denomination that is stated by Christianity Today to be the 5th largest Christian group in the world - but certainly the Catholic church the Orthodox church and the Assemblies of God are even larger by that measure. I freely admit that as well.
Baptists will sometimes resort to the argument that favor sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition which I applaud them for - when they do it.
But take a good read of page one of this thread --- click on this link. Here you will see where they "blink" when it comes to sola scriptura.
#1 Mar 30, 2016
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Is this your way of admitting that the ecumenical Catholic council of LATERAN IV - that called for the "extermination" of Jews and heretics - in CANON LAW - was a huge mistake on the part of a so-called infallible ecumenical council?
If so - then you are taking a big step forward into the light of the 20th and 21st century.
Are you willing?
A rose by any other name is still a rose.
If Jesus Christ has ever forgiven you, that is the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
If you want to argue you can be saved without God forgiving you, then you got a case.
Else you ran into a word you don't understand "Sacrament".
See Forgiveness from God is a SACRED gift. Hence a sacrament.
You might have a problem with extra reverence given to sacred gifts from God like a ceremony, tradition or ritual. Like confessing sins through a priest rather then by yourself. Say that then.
So can I have eternal life without taking the Eucharist?
Or let me ask another question.
What must I do to have eternal life?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Christ alone saves, He doesn't need nor require assistance on the part of sacraments, or self, or a certain denomination.
To add to or diminish from the Gospel is to distort the complete salvation Christ accomplished on the Cross and is another gospel; Galatians 1:8-10, Hebrews 10:14. The office of priest is a mockery of the completed work of Christ, and there is no official office of priest in the NT Scriptures. All the OT Scriptures, save of Melchizedek, show an incomplete and imperfect office because they all sinned, and they all died. The only offices in NT are of pastor and deacon.
I just wanted to clarify the error in your thinking 'Sacraments alone yes'. Many catholic errors, specifically those that conflate works salvation with evidence of conversion, and prescriptive and descriptive passages, come from quoting Scriptures showing Christian conduct, making them into what one must do to gain eternal life. Generally these misquotes and misunderstandings come from the latter portions of Paul's epistles where he is teaching those who are truly converted how to walk as Christians in this world.
BTW, welcome to BB, I hope your understanding will be via the prayer of Paul for the true church as per Ephesians 1.
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That's silly. The pope can say lets kill all jews today, that doesn't make it teaching or infallible.
Lateran also says doctors have to call a priest to prescribe medicine.
Our rules are over here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
I think the first group to have a issue was Novatianists then Donatist. (I just wiki'd the stuff but don't tell anyone, I want to keep an all knowing aura)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novatianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatism
They believe in a church of saints, no sinners. Bad sin and you were out. When priests/Christians would deny Jesus or hand over their scriptures to save their own lives, they were branded traitors.
Basically they claimed these people cannot be forgiven.
All Catholic teaching, What we really teach can be found in the catechism
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm
1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206
Entries have a number that follow like the 206 above. Which points to scripture or explanation of scripture
Basically we teach Jesus is completely present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.
"A wicked priest can celebrate Mass and have it still be valid, but a holy lay person couldn't celebrate Mass at all?"
I'm going to research this. I think the answer is going to be we don't create the Eucharist. Jesus Christ does it the priest is only a vessel I want to say Persona Christi.
I'll check it out.
I appreciate your checking things out. My point on the doctrines of transubstantiation, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and the immaculate conception was that the doctrines, IMO, do not make sense theologically and/or practically. I understand the doctrines themselves intellectually, but they don't make "sense" to me (if THAT makes sense!).
(The next part is for the sake of argument. I do not believe salvation can be lost.)
My issue with ex opere operato is that it circumvents the reality that a priest could be in mortal sin. If such a priest celebrates Mass in bad faith, basically the only reason that he has the ability to consecrate the elements is that he was once ordained and knows the right words. He could be a closet atheist, but the Eucharist would be valid.
But a lay person could use the right words but could still not consecrate the elements, even if the person were the holiest individual imaginable. The reason? Never ordained.
I understand WHY ex opere operato was devised (so that people wouldn't be taking false sacraments and thus jeopardizing their spiritual state without their knowledge---fear would be pandemic). I just believe the doctrine was devised for pragmatic rather than theological reasons.
Trinity47
New Member
You know, you might be right! Thank you for that, it is something I will look into. It's not as important to define myself as this, that or the other for the sake of labeling myself but rather so that I can have direction in order to get the most out of my spiritual life and walk with Jesus. As of right now I am doing a lot of self-instruction but I would like to have fellowship (I think that is the word I am looking for) with like minded christians, so Evangelical Catholic is a good place to start my research. I didn't even know there was such a thing!
It wouldn't be an official term or anything, but it would include those Catholics whose faith is very similar to evangelical Protestantism without the elements that reject Catholic dogma.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Evangelical and Catholic are mutually exclusive terms.
Still waiting for a direct answer.
Trinity47
New Member
Actually it IS a thing and the Vatican knows there is a growing sect of catholics who fall into this category and there are even Evangelical Catholic churches. Not sure if any are close to me but there are many so I guess it is a thing that I will have to look into further. hehe
(How do we put in a profile picture btw? Sorry if I am asking in wrong place but I don't see it anywhere)
(How do we put in a profile picture btw? Sorry if I am asking in wrong place but I don't see it anywhere)
Love God, Love Neighbor. Luke 10.
By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
Your first question is harder. I don't know. I would imagine. You would have to take the Eucharist at some point spiritually if not in life or in the last day after resurrection. Keep in mind spiritual does not mean lesser reality or only symbolic. John 6. I' will have to research this.
I believe you are misinterpreting the catechism.
Paragraph 2037 states:
"The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. The faithful therefore have the right to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason. They have the duty of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity."
A Catholic is bound to follow the teachings of the Catholic church. Someone would not be free to violate these teachings because of conscience because it is a known error to violate the teachings of the church.
Also, note Paragraph 1791:
"This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man 'takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.'In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits."
If you hover over your name at the top right corner, you can click personal details. Then you can click on the default avatar to change it.
Just curious---why is it that you are unable to give up Mass? Is it a personal reason? Theological?
this is double talk. You contradict yourself, you tell me
I must love God and my neighbor and then say it's by grace through faith? It's one or the other.
Here's the problem, No one has lived their life Loving God with their heart and loving their neighbor as their self.. How many lies have you told? Didn't love your neighbor and God when you lied. How many times have you lusted after someone you were not married to? Jesus said you commit adultery in your heart if you do that. Have you ever hated anyone? The bible says that is murder in Gods eyes.
So here's the problem when you stand before God, you are guilty. You've already broken the commandments, therefore the commandments have no part in you receiving eternal life.
Romans 3:19-24 KJV
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:28 KJV
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
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Trinity47
New Member
Hi, thanks worked!
So far as Mass, I guess it is the feeling of worship that I get. For me, being on my knees and reliving/remembering the Last Supper really gives me the feeling of worship like nothing else. For me, listening to a Preacher preach at the pulpit is bible study for me. It's way important but for me it isn't the same as worship if that makes sense. It's also the tradition of it. It's my fave part of the Mass and the most important.
So far as Mass, I guess it is the feeling of worship that I get. For me, being on my knees and reliving/remembering the Last Supper really gives me the feeling of worship like nothing else. For me, listening to a Preacher preach at the pulpit is bible study for me. It's way important but for me it isn't the same as worship if that makes sense. It's also the tradition of it. It's my fave part of the Mass and the most important.
And here lies another problem. The Eucharist is not Jesus Christ. A person is saved by receiving Christ, this is done by faith and happens In a persons heart.
Romans 10:10 KJV
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
This is not describing a ritual done by a Catholic Priest with a wafer...which you would call the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Also after you die there is no other chance to receive grace. The Rich man in Luke 16 was not given a second chance. Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment. No second chances in the last day. The chance to be saved is now while in this life.
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