must've been a long trip to the post office this morning...
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Union With Christ
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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When and how are we (born anew Christians) united with Christ. When God transfers us into Christ, having credited our faith as righteousness during our physical lives. Once we have been put in Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation - born anew. We are then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our adoption at Christ's second coming the redemption of our bodies. But once God puts us into Christ, we are spiritually united with Christ, made alive together with Christ, and have experienced all the blessings of being spiritually in the Beloved.
Pay no attention to those who take this simple straightforward truth and twist it into some sort of complex theological doctrine. Google and read up on "positional sanctification."
Pay no attention to those who take this simple straightforward truth and twist it into some sort of complex theological doctrine. Google and read up on "positional sanctification."
I was able to speak with three people about the gospel out in public. When I speak I say much more than I post. I make plans subject to change in the Providence of God.
I was just razzing you a little. Take your time. I know my question isn't one which is encountered, and the answer deserves more time and thought than a knee jerk
Good question. Since I don't believe in perseverance of the saints in manifest good works but only in the perseverance in saving faith this question is not a problem.
I am driving now.....will answer later tonight
When and how are we (born anew Christians) united with Christ. When God transfers us into Christ, having credited our faith as righteousness during our physical lives. Once we have been put in Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation - born anew. We are then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our adoption at Christ's second coming the redemption of our bodies. But once God puts us into Christ, we are spiritually united with Christ, made alive together with Christ, and have experienced all the blessings of being spiritually in the Beloved.
Pay no attention to those who take this simple straightforward truth and twist it into some sort of complex theological doctrine. Google and read up on "positional sanctification."
When we are "positionally sanctified" we are united with Christ, and our union with Christ is eternally established.
Pay no attention to those who take this simple straightforward truth and twist it into some sort of complex theological doctrine. Google and read up on "positional sanctification."
When we are "positionally sanctified" we are united with Christ, and our union with Christ is eternally established.
Looks like at breakfast.....at bit burnt out now.I will answer you and B.
Topic of Thread = Union with Christ
Off topic = claiming union with Christ is not the topic.
When is our union with Christ established? When God transfers us spiritually into Christ
When is our union with Christ not established. At any other time.
When does God transfer us into Christ? When He credits our faith as righteousness, during our physical lifetime. In Christ = in union with Christ. Not in Christ = not in union with Christ.
When are we positionally sanctified? When we are set apart in Christ.
Off topic = claiming union with Christ is not the topic.
When is our union with Christ established? When God transfers us spiritually into Christ
When is our union with Christ not established. At any other time.
When does God transfer us into Christ? When He credits our faith as righteousness, during our physical lifetime. In Christ = in union with Christ. Not in Christ = not in union with Christ.
When are we positionally sanctified? When we are set apart in Christ.
Post 12 did answer your question if you read what was offered....
Your question reminds me of RC theology where they say a person is in a "state of grace" or sometimes they are not.
The perserverance of the saints is really the perserverance of the savior working in the believer effectually.
notice how the 1689 addresses the RC objection using their own language;
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
The Op works hand in to explain this....slow down and work through these well worded statements.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
Yep, now that I believe - peseverance in the faith, but Calvins doctrine of perseverance in manifest good works I do not believe.
The Biblicist
Jesus was not buried in water.
The likeness speaks of the identification we have with Jesus in his death and being raised from the dead.
The reference to “baptism” is not literal, but must be taken figuratively. The Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration. The term “Baptism” was often used figuratively for identification with someone or thing (e.g., John the Baptist came to prepare or identify a people for the Messiah. Our Lord had to experience a “baptism” of suffering in Matt. 20:22–23; Mk. 10:38–39; Lk. 12:50, etc.). Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it.
The biblical description of such identification is clear in scripture.... in each case ...water speaks of death.....and us being rightly related to that "death".
1pet3
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The believers were rightly related to the waters of death...in the place of safety...
In the same way in Romans 6....the work described can only be accomplished by Spirit baptism......water is an outward symbol of us being rightly related to it, in Spiritual union with Christ.
Your view of the church fuels your thought here....romans 6 does not address that directly.
?
Jesus was not buried in water.
The likeness speaks of the identification we have with Jesus in his death and being raised from the dead.
The reference to “baptism” is not literal, but must be taken figuratively. The Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration. The term “Baptism” was often used figuratively for identification with someone or thing (e.g., John the Baptist came to prepare or identify a people for the Messiah. Our Lord had to experience a “baptism” of suffering in Matt. 20:22–23; Mk. 10:38–39; Lk. 12:50, etc.). Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it.
The biblical description of such identification is clear in scripture.... in each case ...water speaks of death.....and us being rightly related to that "death".
Baptism was identification for the believers......Egyptians were immersed in the waters of death....
1pet3
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The believers were rightly related to the waters of death...in the place of safety...
In the same way in Romans 6....the work described can only be accomplished by Spirit baptism......water is an outward symbol of us being rightly related to it, in Spiritual union with Christ.
.[/QUOTE]
Your view of the church fuels your thought here....romans 6 does not address that directly.
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The OP spoke to this;
from post #1;
Good works will follow all true believers. It is not a works based sanctification, but a sanctification that works.
The final perseverance of the saints rests on the objective basis of the immutability or infallibility of the eternal, redemptive purpose as it is expressed in the believer’s union with Christ. The Scriptures clearly teach that every true Christian has been brought into spiritual union with Christ, and that this vital relationship is by sovereign grace alone, was determined in eternity, is necessarily evidenced in the life, and will infallibly be consummated in glory. The believer’s union with Christ is thus the biblical reality that forms “the central truth of all theology and all religion”
Here it answers the question by looking at the negative...
• This truth forms the eternal and objective basis for the believer’s experience, confidence and hope. Herein is the only scriptural basis for a true, biblical assurance of salvation. To deny this revealed, glorious truth is to base one’s salvation on an experience, on personal faithfulness, or on adherence to a subjective, legalistic system. In the believer’s union with Christ is revealed the glory of free and sovereign grace in its fullness
Van,
off topic in that you do not desire to participate , but rather disrupt the thread as usual.
God transfers no one anywhere. This is your false invention.
The God of scripture has elected a multitude before time. You deny the biblical record on this ,so you are disqualified from being taken seriously.
When the Spirit quickens the elect and grants repentance and faith, they discover that they were the objects of God's eternal love.
They by new birth are translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. They are not transferred anywhere.....they are right where they always were, chosen in Christ before time.
God does not credit sinful man with anything....they are dead in sin, and have nothing to bring to Jesus but their sin.
If you want to post your error, open your own thread, which you have done in the past, and have no one who believes your fantasies....
When is our union with Christ not established. At any other time.
When does God transfer us into Christ? When He credits our faith as righteousness, during our physical lifetime. In Christ = in union with Christ. Not in Christ = not in union with Christ.
When are we positionally sanctified? When we are set apart in Christ.[/QUOTE]
You have not addressed anything in the OP. You ignored it except for the name union with Christ. Then you put in your heretical novelties that you post in almost every thread....No one believes or supports your foul posts.
off topic in that you do not desire to participate , but rather disrupt the thread as usual.
God transfers no one anywhere. This is your false invention.
The God of scripture has elected a multitude before time. You deny the biblical record on this ,so you are disqualified from being taken seriously.
When the Spirit quickens the elect and grants repentance and faith, they discover that they were the objects of God's eternal love.
They by new birth are translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. They are not transferred anywhere.....they are right where they always were, chosen in Christ before time.
God does not credit sinful man with anything....they are dead in sin, and have nothing to bring to Jesus but their sin.
If you want to post your error, open your own thread, which you have done in the past, and have no one who believes your fantasies....
When is our union with Christ not established. At any other time.
When does God transfer us into Christ? When He credits our faith as righteousness, during our physical lifetime. In Christ = in union with Christ. Not in Christ = not in union with Christ.
When are we positionally sanctified? When we are set apart in Christ.[/QUOTE]
here is JL Dagg on this;
FINAL PERSEVERANCE
John L. Dagg
Manual of Theology
1857 Section VI
We have said, that the Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom he has regenerated. In consequence of this, they persevere in a course of holy obedience to the end of life. Whatever struggles it may cost, and whatever temporary departures from the straight line of duty may mark their course, they are graciously preserved from total and final apostacy. This truth may be proved by the following arguments:
1. By the will of God, as revealed in the holy Scriptures, that which is produced in regeneration, is immortal. This is signified by the language of the Scriptures: "The hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible." [1st Peter 3:4] "Being born of the incorruptible [1st Peter 1:23] "Whosoever is born of God, doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him." [1st John 3:9] Grace in the heart is here represented I as incorruptible and abiding, and as securing its possessor from sin, that is, from a life of sin, such as unregenerate men pursue. The same truth is taught in these words of Christ: " lie that believeth, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." [John 5:24] The new life which grace produces, is in the present possession of the believer, and is here called everlasting. Its perpetuity is asserted in another form, in the words "Neither shall he come intocondemnation." If one who has been made a new creature, and justified by faith, can return to the state from which divine grace has rescued him, lie will come again into condemnation ; but this is declared in these words of the infallible teacher, to be impossible: "If they who have passed from death to life, may return again to death, their present life is not everlasting;" and the assurance, neither shall come into condemnation, is groundless. The same truth is exhibited in another light, in these words of Paul : " If knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dieth no more, death hath no dominion over him; likewise reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." [Romans 4:9, 11] Here believers are taught to account the new life which they have received, to be like the life of Christ, raised from the dead. As death hath no more dominion over him, the resemblance would fail in a most important particular, if their spiritual life were not immortal. As death can have no more dominion over the risen Saviour, so death, can have no more dominion over those who in regeneration, have passed from death to life and have been raised up together with Christ.
2. The union of believers with Christ is indissoluble. His love holds them fast. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ," &c [Romans 8:35-39] "Having loved his own, he loved them to the end." [John 13:1] "His power holds them fast; neither shall any pluck them out of my hand." [John 10:28] Such is their union to hirn, that their life is said to be in him, and he is called their life. [Colossains 3:3-4] The life of the risen Jesus, is the life of his people and such is their union with him, as to render this life operative in them: "If when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." [Romans 5:10] As his death was efficacious to bring us into a state of reconciliation with God, his life, now that he has been raised from the dead, and is ever living to make intercession for us, and is the source of our life, hid in the Godhead, will much more preserve us in this state of reconciliation, and secure our final and complete salvation.
3. The promises of God secure our preservation in Christ. When the new covenant is made with beleivers, by writing the law in their hearts, the accompanying promise is : "I will be to them a a God and they shall be to me a people." [Hebrews 8:10] It is true that the Israelites were once accounted the people of God; and that they departed from God, and were rejected by him; and the same departure and rejection might happen to believers in Christ, if they were under the same covenant. But God found fault with the old covenant precisely on this ground, that it did not secure his people from ilisobedienee and rejection : " Because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not.'' [Hebrews 8:9] Having found fault with this covenant, which did not put the law in their hearts, and secure them from rejection, be abolishes that covenant, and makes a new one, founded on better promises : "I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." [Jeremiah 32:40] "Believers are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation;" [1st Peter 1:5] and the power which keeps them through faith, keeps that faith in existence and exercise, or it would fail to preserve them. This preservation of their faith, follows from the intercession of ChrIst who prayed for Peter, that his faith should not fail; and as lie ever livetlh to make intercession, [Hebrews 7:25] the preservation of faith is secured by the continued supplies of his grace, which otherwise would not be sufficient for his people. It is manifest that Paul entertained these views, when lie wrote to the Philippians: "Being confident of this very thing, that lie which bath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." [Philippians 1:6]
Michael Horton quoting john Murray;
[QUOTE
What Is "Union With Christ"?
If this doctrine is, as John Murray wrote, "the central truth of the whole doctrine of salvation," what does it mean and why is it so important?
First, union with Christ describes the reality of which Paul wrote in Romans chapter six. As a husband and wife are united through marriage and a parent and a child are united through birth, so we are united to Christ through the Spirit's baptism. Those who are familiar with the historical (if not contemporary) discourses of Reformed and Lutheran preaching will immediately recognize the emphasis on the objective work of Christ in history. Themes such as election, the incarnation, the substitutionary atonement, the active and passive obedience of Christ, justification, adoption, and the objective aspect of sanctification (i.e., the declaration that we are already holy in Christ), form the diet of the best and most biblically faithful preaching. Each of these themes serves to remind the believer that his or her righteousness is found not within, but outside.
][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE
What Is "Union With Christ"?
If this doctrine is, as John Murray wrote, "the central truth of the whole doctrine of salvation," what does it mean and why is it so important?
First, union with Christ describes the reality of which Paul wrote in Romans chapter six. As a husband and wife are united through marriage and a parent and a child are united through birth, so we are united to Christ through the Spirit's baptism. Those who are familiar with the historical (if not contemporary) discourses of Reformed and Lutheran preaching will immediately recognize the emphasis on the objective work of Christ in history. Themes such as election, the incarnation, the substitutionary atonement, the active and passive obedience of Christ, justification, adoption, and the objective aspect of sanctification (i.e., the declaration that we are already holy in Christ), form the diet of the best and most biblically faithful preaching. Each of these themes serves to remind the believer that his or her righteousness is found not within, but outside.
][/QUOTE]
Michael Horton again;
2. Confusing Indicative and Imperative
Everywhere the Scriptures provide both the declaration of who we are in Christ (indicative) and the command to respond to that particular declaration in a certain way (imperative). For instance, Paul does not simply issue an imperative like, "Stop living with your boyfriend." He says, "How should we who have died to sin live any longer in it?" Paul does not call people to die to sin; he does not invite them to enter into a higher level of abundant life; there are not appeals to become something which the believer is not already. The believer has died, is buried, is raised, is seated with Christ in the heavenlies, and so on. These are not plateaus for victorious Christians who have surrendered all, but realities for every believer regardless of how small one's faith or how weak one's repentance.
Thus, we must stop trying to convert believers into these realities by imperatives: "Do this," "Confess that," "Follow these steps," and so on. Union with Christ ushers us into conversion and conversion ushers us immediately into all of these realities so that, as Sinclair Ferguson writes, "The determining factor of my existence is no longer my past. It is Christ's past" (Christian Spirituality: Five Views, Zondervan, p.57).
2. Confusing Indicative and Imperative
Everywhere the Scriptures provide both the declaration of who we are in Christ (indicative) and the command to respond to that particular declaration in a certain way (imperative). For instance, Paul does not simply issue an imperative like, "Stop living with your boyfriend." He says, "How should we who have died to sin live any longer in it?" Paul does not call people to die to sin; he does not invite them to enter into a higher level of abundant life; there are not appeals to become something which the believer is not already. The believer has died, is buried, is raised, is seated with Christ in the heavenlies, and so on. These are not plateaus for victorious Christians who have surrendered all, but realities for every believer regardless of how small one's faith or how weak one's repentance.
Thus, we must stop trying to convert believers into these realities by imperatives: "Do this," "Confess that," "Follow these steps," and so on. Union with Christ ushers us into conversion and conversion ushers us immediately into all of these realities so that, as Sinclair Ferguson writes, "The determining factor of my existence is no longer my past. It is Christ's past" (Christian Spirituality: Five Views, Zondervan, p.57).
Michael Horton pt3;
3. Quietism & Legalism
Some Christians so emphasize a "let go and let God" passivity that even after conversion they act as though they believe they are still "dead in trespasses and sins" and do not "understand the things of the Spirit of God." Wanting to attribute everything to grace and God's work, they confuse justification and sanctification just as surely as those who want to underscore human involvement. In our initial conversion we are passive: acted upon rather than active, as Luther put it. We are justified through receiving what someone else has earned for us. But we grow in sanctification through living outwhat someone else has earned for us. Both are gifts we inherit from someone else, but the former is passively received and the second is actively pursued. If I were a pauper who had some benefactor deposit one billion dollars in my bank account, I would be regarded a billionaire; but there would be the need to share this new wealth with friends living on the street. The gift was received passively, but in turn it was put to use for good actively.
If sanctification is confused with justification, it will lose the tension, reality, and rigor necessary for the battles of the Christian life; if justification is confused with sanctification, the product will be of no redemptive value.
Therefore, let us distinguish conversion from justification and realize that initial conversion is a passive reception of God's gracious acceptance of us in Christ, while the life-long conversion process is an active pursuit of holiness and righteousness, the very thing which the gospel promises that we already possess fully and completely in Christ.
In conclusion, let us meditate on the wonderful promise that in Christ we possess all of his riches, not just one or two of them. Do we try to imitate him? Yes--not merely as our moral example, the way Greek sailors may have venerated Neptune or Greek philosophers venerated Aristotle's ethics, but as our indwelling Head. As the little brother stands in awe of his elder sibling, let us imitate our Elder Brother because of the fact that through his incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension, and mediation, we are flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. For "Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family" (Heb.2:11).
The call to the converted, therefore, is not, "Come to Christ; only he can give you the power to live the abundant Christian life!" Rather, it is, "Come to Christ; only he can be your abundance," as the Father has only "blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" (Eph.1:3).
3. Quietism & Legalism
Some Christians so emphasize a "let go and let God" passivity that even after conversion they act as though they believe they are still "dead in trespasses and sins" and do not "understand the things of the Spirit of God." Wanting to attribute everything to grace and God's work, they confuse justification and sanctification just as surely as those who want to underscore human involvement. In our initial conversion we are passive: acted upon rather than active, as Luther put it. We are justified through receiving what someone else has earned for us. But we grow in sanctification through living outwhat someone else has earned for us. Both are gifts we inherit from someone else, but the former is passively received and the second is actively pursued. If I were a pauper who had some benefactor deposit one billion dollars in my bank account, I would be regarded a billionaire; but there would be the need to share this new wealth with friends living on the street. The gift was received passively, but in turn it was put to use for good actively.
If sanctification is confused with justification, it will lose the tension, reality, and rigor necessary for the battles of the Christian life; if justification is confused with sanctification, the product will be of no redemptive value.
Therefore, let us distinguish conversion from justification and realize that initial conversion is a passive reception of God's gracious acceptance of us in Christ, while the life-long conversion process is an active pursuit of holiness and righteousness, the very thing which the gospel promises that we already possess fully and completely in Christ.
In conclusion, let us meditate on the wonderful promise that in Christ we possess all of his riches, not just one or two of them. Do we try to imitate him? Yes--not merely as our moral example, the way Greek sailors may have venerated Neptune or Greek philosophers venerated Aristotle's ethics, but as our indwelling Head. As the little brother stands in awe of his elder sibling, let us imitate our Elder Brother because of the fact that through his incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension, and mediation, we are flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. For "Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family" (Heb.2:11).
The call to the converted, therefore, is not, "Come to Christ; only he can give you the power to live the abundant Christian life!" Rather, it is, "Come to Christ; only he can be your abundance," as the Father has only "blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" (Eph.1:3).
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