Union With Christ

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

How can you be so dishonest with me and with God’s Word

.

You not understanding what I say does not translate to me being dishonest with anyone. You seem to be a bit full of yourself here.

They are irrefutable facts and totally annihilate your doctrine by exposing it as unscriptural, thus a FALSE doctrine that actually perverts the gospel of Christ BECAUSE it demands some other way of salvation before Pentecost

The only perversion here is coming from your keyboard....

Spirit Baptism is a one time event. I have made that clear.....In post 74 I said this;
There is one common bond that unites all the elect from all time and places them into the eternal body of Christ, that is Spirit baptism. All of the benefits of the work of the cross are conferred upon all the elect at one point in time. What was planned and certain before the world was , is made actual upon the completion of the cross work being applied as the covering over all of the elect as they are quickened by the Spirit of God.
You fail to grasp it, or you disagree, that is up to you. Do not say I am dishonest or you bear false witness.

Nobody denies the Spirit has been at work in God’s people while here on earth from Genesis to Acts 1, but scripture denies the baptizing work of the Spirit preceded Acts 2:

Yeah, so what....I said the same thing.....There is one point in time that Spirit Baptism took place.....Pentecost, so why are you trying to twist what I said?
Here again from post73; I posted...
Because Spirit baptism was a once for all time event, does not mean it has disappeared. The cross was a one time event, but it has not disappeared.
So why do you suggest I said otherwise?

1. Mt 3:11 – FUTURE TENSE “shall baptized”
   
   
2. Acts 1:5 – FUTURE “not many days hence”

So the basis for your whole position, the basis for your whole post, which is all the elect from Genesis to Revelation are saved in Christ by the baptism in the Spirit is FALSE as the baptism in the Spirit NEVER existed previous to Pentecost.

Again you repeat your falsehood.....Where did I post anything about Spirit Baptism before Pentecost?

So, every single one of your accusations of "Strawman" are false, because they are all based upon you proving that the BAPTIZING WORK of the Spirit preceded Pentecost which is FALSE!

No ...that is your avoiding the issue raised. I will break this up into shorter posts as you are going all over the place...

You are being dishonest and intentionally deceptive by claiming the generic "work" of the Spirit preceded Pentecost when we are not discussing the regenerating or filling or sealing, or empowering, or fruits, or equipping, or etc.,

Again your false claim...

but we are discussing being BAPTIZED IN THE SPIRIT before Pentecost so either put up scriptural evidence that this particular work preceded Pentecost or shut up!

You are discussing that as that is your invention.....

IF YOU DISAGREE PROVIDE SCRIPTURE THAT EXPLICTLY STATES THE SPECIFIC BAPTIZING WORK OF THE SPIRIT PRECEDED ACTS 2 or admit you are wrong!

The false charge once again

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

IN CONTEXT this text is describing the specific concrete congregation located at Corinth using abstract language.

1. This “temple of God” is “YE” not “WE”
   
   
2. This “temple of God” can be defiled (v. 16-17) “defile”
   
   
3. This “temple of God” had its foundation laid by Paul as the “masterbuilder” – v. 10s
   
   
4. This “temple of God” described the Corinthians –“ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.” Not “we are”.

Therefore, institutional indwelling is different than individual indwelling. It is the institution that was indwelt and baptized in the Spirit (public confirmation as the new "house of God") on Pentecost – Acts 1:21-22 with 2:1. They had been habitually assembling with Christ from the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22) and they were all assembled together “in one accord in one place” on Pentecost as His congregation when that institution was immersed in the Spirit and 3000 were “added unto them….the church” (Acts 2:1, 40, 46).

The individual Christians were indwelt with the Spirit of God so much so that their bodies were called the temple of God in 1cor6.
The church plural......ye.....are the temple of God was also true.
If you are suggesting anything less.....say so.

The ....ye....is plural.

 

[Iconoclast]

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Baptism is an Identification with.....
In Post #1 it was expressed here;
• This truth finds its foundation in the eternal, redemptive purpose of God. This union was established in eternal election (Eph. 1:3–11), is analogically understood by the union or identification of all humanity in Adam (Rom. 5:12ff; 1 Cor. 15:22), found its reality in the incarnation and redemptive work of Christ (Rom. 5:10, 18–21; 6:1–10; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:1–3), finds expression in biblical Christian experience (Rom. 6:1–14; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:1–5ff), and will be fully realized in future glory (Eph. 2:6–7).


Also from post 1;
The reference to “baptism” is not literal, but must be taken figuratively. The Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration. The term “Baptism” was often used figuratively for identification with someone or thing (e.g., John the Baptist came to prepare or identify a people for the Messiah. Our Lord had to experience a “baptism” of suffering in Matt. 20:22–23; Mk. 10:38–39; Lk. 12:50, etc.). Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it.


Your response was this;

Iconoclast, there are several problems with your posts. First they cover far too much territory. Second, you confuse literal with metaphorical and symbolic unions with Christ. Finally, it really does not deal with the actual characteristics of spiritual union.]

Explain how they were "baptized unto Moses"...literally? where was the water?
Those literally immersed were the Egyptian soldiers.

 

[The Biblicist]

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Baptism is an Identification with.....
In Post #1 it was expressed here;
• This truth finds its foundation in the eternal, redemptive purpose of God. This union was established in eternal election (Eph. 1:3–11), is analogically understood by the union or identification of all humanity in Adam (Rom. 5:12ff; 1 Cor. 15:22), found its reality in the incarnation and redemptive work of Christ (Rom. 5:10, 18–21; 6:1–10; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:1–3), finds expression in biblical Christian experience (Rom. 6:1–14; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:1–5ff), and will be fully realized in future glory (Eph. 2:6–7).


Also from post 1;
The reference to “baptism” is not literal, but must be taken figuratively. The Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration. The term “Baptism” was often used figuratively for identification with someone or thing (e.g., John the Baptist came to prepare or identify a people for the Messiah. Our Lord had to experience a “baptism” of suffering in Matt. 20:22–23; Mk. 10:38–39; Lk. 12:50, etc.). Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it.


Your response was this;

Explain how they were "baptized unto Moses"...literally? where was the water?
Those literally immersed were the Egyptian soldiers.

The walls of water were on both sides. The cloud of fire was behind them and the pillar of cloud was before them, the sky was above them, they were completely enclosed on all sides.

However, you are still ignoring your chief problem and that is the ACT of being immersed in the Spirit did not occur previous to Pentecost and therefore no one before pentecost could be saved "in Christ" BY BEING IMMERSED IN THE SPIRIT. Thus all your argument and all your N.T. proof texts fall flat, UNLESS you deny anyone was "in Christ" by baptism in the Spirit before Pentecost. But if you do deny it and demand from Pentecost forward we are saved that way then you are forced to embrace some other way of salvation prior to Pentecost or deny they were "In Christ" at all but lived and died spiritually separated from God.

I don't have that problem because I consistently teach all the elect are saved "in Christ" BY REGENERATION not by baptism in the Spirit, while baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost is an Institutional baptism JUST AS IT WAS in the Old testament (Ex. 40:35; 2 chron. 7:1-3).

 

[The Biblicist]

Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it. .

You can't have it both ways! Either this baptism in Romans 6 is spiritual baptism which can and does effect spiritual union "in Christ" OR this baptism is SYMBOLIC "likeness" of Christ's death, burial and resurrection and therefore does not and cannot effect literal salvation.

Either it literally effects spiritual union with Christ because IT IS spiritual immersion into Christ OR it "Does not and cannot effect literal salvation" because it is not literal spiritual union with Christ but only IDENTIFIES the believer with Christ's because it is water baptism.

It is the "likeness" but it is "not and cannot affect" SPIRITUAL union with his death or his burial or his resurrection EXCEPT SYMBOLIC IDENTIFICATION in water baptism

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

While I am thankful for these responses....I am afraid I am perhaps not making myself clear enough....Your position about regeneration does not upset me at all.

Your view of the local church being credentialed does not bother me also. I hold it....[not the way you do] but I do hold to local church only until the last day.
Now I will press forward here and try to clarify

The walls of water were on both sides

.

Okay.....literal water forming walls, supernatural deliverance, not a drop of literal water or any literal baptism.....took place upon the believers.....see the text-
26 And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

The literal waters spoke of death which did not come upon Israel here......
It says they walked upon DRY LAND.....no water.....

The only Baptism mentioned ....was UNTO MOSES.......not unto water..
The water was death......Identified with Moses message, baptized UNTO HIM...they lived and did not die.

The is the first Exodus, Moses a type of Christ

You might not agree with how I understand it, but nevertheless I will put it out there....Something has to correspond to this in the NT reality.....

The cloud of fire was behind them and the pillar of cloud was before them, the sky was above them, they were completely enclosed on all sides

.
That is a physical description, but does not account for Paul speaking of being Baptized unto Moses in 1 cor 10

However, you are still ignoring your chief problem and that is the ACT of being immersed in the Spirit did not occur previous to Pentecost and therefore no one before pentecost could be saved "in Christ" BY BEING IMMERSED IN THE SPIRIT.

I do not see it as a problem...you do. I think all elect persons for all time are baptized into Christ at ONE POINT IN TIME
Those before the cross and Pentecost, those after.

Just like the blood shed on the cross was effectual for all the elect for all time....I believe Jesus is building His body the church....which consists of All saints from all time.....Ot saints did not live at the time the One eternal church is being built, but the fact is they are spoken of as one in eternity with all other saints.

Thus all your argument and all your N.T. proof texts fall flat, UNLESS you deny anyone was "in Christ" by baptism in the Spirit before Pentecost. But if you do deny it and demand from Pentecost forward we are saved that way then you are forced to embrace some other way of salvation prior to Pentecost or deny they were "In Christ" at all but lived and died spiritually separated from God.

Now you see why I reject this???

I don't have that problem because I consistently teach all the elect are saved "in Christ" BY REGENERATION not by baptism in the Spirit, while baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost is an Institutional baptism JUST AS IT WAS in the Old testament (Ex. 40:35; 2 chron. 7:1-3).[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

You can't have it both ways! Either this baptism in Romans 6 is spiritual baptism which can and does effect spiritual union "in Christ" OR this baptism is SYMBOLIC "likeness" of Christ's death, burial and resurrection and therefore does not and cannot effect literal salvation.

Either it literally effects spiritual union with Christ because IT IS spiritual immersion into Christ OR it "Does not and cannot effect literal salvation" because it is not literal spiritual union with Christ but only IDENTIFIES the believer with Christ's because it is water baptism.

It is the "likeness" but it is "not and cannot affect" SPIRITUAL union with his death or his burial or his resurrection EXCEPT SYMBOLIC IDENTIFICATION in water baptism

I believe it is Spiritual baptism and I also believe this is what gives resurrection life to us on the last day.....
1cor15-
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

If it is regeneration that gives us life and saves us from our sins here....I believe it is Spirit baptism that grants us resurrected Eternal life throughout eternity.{not just us, but all the elect that went before us, and all who will follow after us..}

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The promise spoken of in Acts to was the promise to Jesus from psalm 16-
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Now watch;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The promise had to do with resurrection of which we are now assured.....when He died, we died, as He was resurrected so we will be ....
acts 15....
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

You have quoted this passage several times...but I see it speaking of Spirit baptism, and being granted , repentance unto LIFE..

While the church as an institution if you will was credentialed by Apostolic witness.....it is clear that the individual believers now, WHEN quickened have the whole package put to their account......ie, that life that now is, and that which is to come.

 

[Iconoclast]

Another example, the same truth;
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


Same as before.....In the time of Noah
the waters of the flood....were death....
eight souls were saved by water...
.the water cut off the ungodly line by death....
the eight souls by God's grace where rightly related to the judgment, they were in a place of safety.....the water did not cleanse them...it was death to the world of the ungodly....

water baptism...not the putting away of the filth of the flesh....but rather the answer of a good conscience before God.....BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.

Resurrection life is highlighted here.....only the Spirit accomplishes that.....
water can only show the reality of the unseen work of the Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Forget for a minute the election and predestination contained here, and view these verses and our Inheritance in light of what I am saying;

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I believe it is clearly taught that the once for all time Baptism of the Spirit , is put to the account of every believing sinner....as they are quickened, that which was accomplished is welcomed as the EARNEST.....of the purchased possession

There is no need for a new Spirit Baptism.....there is no need for any more cross work, they were once for all events.

 

[The Biblicist]

I realize you are sincere in your attempts to formulate a consistent doctrine. But you are sincerely wrong. One error leads to another error.

First, you are confusing passages that deal with quickening of the human SPIRIT with quickening of the human BODY (1 Cor. 15) and NEITHER is the baptism in the Spirit. He did not come to do either as He has been quickening the human spirit long before Pentecost (Ezek. 44:7; JN. 3) and the quickening of the body occurs after this life at the Second Coming which Job, the oldest book in the Bible taught long before Pentecost - Job 19

Second, you are proving a point I had made earlier and that the "promise" of the Father is multifaceted with regard to the New Covenant visible administration. The Spirit comes for a VARIETY of DIFFERENT purposes:

1. He is poured out upon "ALL FLESH" with regard to the Gentiles with regard to the redemptive purpose of God under the New covenant - Rom. 11 - thus EMPOWERING the gospel beyond the borders of Judaeism - Acts 1:8; 11:18

2. He bestows gifted leadership - Eph. 4:7-11

3. He bestows sign and revelatory gifts through the hands of the apostles with the end view of completing the Biblilcal canon of scriptures - Isa. 8:16-20 - thus leading them into "all truth"

4. He immerses a new "House of God" thus accrediting it as the new institution for public worship - Acts 2:1-3

So your attempt below is an admission of a more faceted and diverse purpose of the coming of the Spirit. That is a step in the right direction.

I am finally glad you admitted that you believe the baptism in rom. 6 IS spiritual baptism INTO CHRIST rather than a baptism of the believer that only publicly IDENTIFIES WITH the "LIKNESS" of Christ's death, burial and resurrection - thus a SYBOLIC identification.

However, your major problem remains. There is no baptism in the Spirit prior to Pentecost just as there is not "NEW TESTAMENT" ekklesia before the earthly ministry of Christ (Mt. 16:18). Either one of these two irrefutable facts completely destroys your whole ecclesiology.

I believe it is Spiritual baptism and I also believe this is what gives resurrection life to us on the last day.....
1cor15-
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

If it is regeneration that gives us life and saves us from our sins here....I believe it is Spirit baptism that grants us resurrected Eternal life throughout eternity.{not just us, but all the elect that went before us, and all who will follow after us..}

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The promise spoken of in Acts to was the promise to Jesus from psalm 16-
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Now watch;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The promise had to do with resurrection of which we are now assured.....when He died, we died, as He was resurrected so we will be ....
acts 15....
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

You have quoted this passage several times...but I see it speaking of Spirit baptism, and being granted , repentance unto LIFE..

While the church as an institution if you will was credentialed by Apostolic witness.....it is clear that the individual believers now, WHEN quickened have the whole package put to their account......ie, that life that now is, and that which is to come.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

I realize you are sincere in your attempts to formulate a consistent doctrine. But you are sincerely wrong. One error leads to another error.

That can be said to everyone who disagrees with anyone else as I can say that of you. I guess being sincerely wrong is better than being cowardly as you suggested the other day.
You would have to see what I believe as error to believe what you do.

I observe that my understanding accounts for all the baptism verses
as well as the first and second Exodus language where you have avoided all such in your comments and your view. So I am content to keep learning and building on what I have learned.

First, you are confusing passages that deal with quickening of the human SPIRIT with quickening of the human BODY (1 Cor. 15) and NEITHER is the baptism in the Spirit.

God saves us body soul and spirit.....the portion of 1 cor 15 I quoted speaks to our union with Christ by Spirit baptism being made part of His body.

He did not come to do either as He has been quickening the human spirit long before Pentecost (Ezek. 44:7; JN. 3) and the quickening of the body occurs after this life at the Second Coming which Job, the oldest book in the Bible taught long before Pentecost - Job 19

that is as I indicated in my comments.

Second, you are proving a point I had made earlier and that the "promise" of the Father is multifaceted with regard to the New Covenant visible administration. The Spirit comes for a VARIETY of DIFFERENT purposes:

My view never denied such.

1. He is poured out upon "ALL FLESH" with regard to the Gentiles with regard to the redemptive purpose of God under the New covenant - Rom. 11 - thus EMPOWERING the gospel beyond the borders of Judaeism - Acts 1:8; 11:18

2. He bestows gifted leadership - Eph. 4:7-11

3. He bestows sign and revelatory gifts through the hands of the apostles with the end view of completing the Biblilcal canon of scriptures - Isa. 8:16-20 - thus leading them into "all truth"

okay

4. He immerses a new "House of God" thus accrediting it as the new institution for public worship - Acts 2:1-3

this is where the contention is.....not that the church is not being built, but your understanding of it.

So your attempt below is an admission of a more faceted and diverse purpose of the coming of the Spirit. That is a step in the right direction.

You assumed too much and ascribed to me things I do not say as per the strawman response.

I am finally glad you admitted that you believe the baptism in rom. 6 IS spiritual baptism INTO CHRIST rather than a baptism of the believer that only publicly IDENTIFIES WITH the "LIKNESS" of Christ's death, burial and resurrection - thus a SYBOLIC identification.

I do not agree with how you view it. water baptism does not place anyone IN Christ.
water baptism is a response to what the Spirit has done.
Romans 6 has no water in it primarily......any water comes later as a demonstration of what has happened in Spirit baptism.

However, your major problem remains. There is no baptism in the Spirit prior to Pentecost

it is not a "problem" to me at all. I have explained why. You do not like my explanation....I do not like yours.....if water baptism is in view in romans 6 it is baptismal regeneration being taught which is to be rejected.

just as there is not "NEW TESTAMENT" ekklesia before the earthly ministry of Christ (Mt. 16:18).

Why would there be a NT church in the OT????? really

Either one of these two irrefutable facts completely destroys your whole ecclesiology

Only in your mind and understanding.... not in reality however.
But you have expressed your view, and offered your support, I have expressed my current understanding so there you have it.

 

[The Biblicist]

God saves us body soul and spirit.....the portion of 1 cor 15 I quoted speaks to our union with Christ by Spirit baptism being made part of His body.

There is not one word about the Baptism in the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 15 and the text you cited refers to the BODY not the spirit which you define as SPIRIT union not BODY union.

this is where the contention is.....not that the church is not being built, but your understanding of it.

The scriptures provide a track record that immersion in the Spirit is an institutional immersion as the public house of worship (Ex. 40:35; 2 Chron. 7:1-3; Acts 2:1). You simply deny that the N.T. ekklesia is an INSTITUTION (officers, government, ordinances, membership requirements, discipline, mission, etc.).

I do not agree with how you view it. water baptism does not place anyone IN Christ.

You are denying an historic Baptist doctrine and that is water baptism SYMBOLICALLY identifies the believer with the death, burial and resurrection, thereby SYMBOLICALLY putting on Christ. The very words "put on" refers to outward clothing and baptism puts ON Christ as an article of clothing is put ON rather than puts one IN as your doctrine demands..

water baptism is a response to what the Spirit has done.

False! water baptism is an outward identification with the gospel.

it is not a "problem" to me at all. I have explained why. You do not like my explanation....I do not like yours.....if water baptism is in view in romans 6 it is baptismal regeneration being taught which is to be rejected.

Your explanation is irrational and unbiblical. First, you admit the ACTION of immersion in the Spirit is what places the believer "in Christ" and then you admit that ACTION did not occur until Pentecost as a ONE TIME EVENT. Are you not intelligent enough to see the obvious problem between those two admissions?????

Why would there be a NT church in the OT????? really

The NT ekklesia is the ONLY ekklesia of which Christ is the builder (Mt. 16:18) and "head." Is the only one with "members" and the only one called "His body" and it is THIS KIND of ekklesia which has a NT "foundation" - thus proving your theory foolish as it has no OT existence.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist,




The individual Christians were indwelt with the Spirit of God so much so that their bodies were called the temple of God in 1cor6.
The church plural......ye.....are the temple of God was also true.
If you are suggesting anything less.....say so.

The ....ye....is plural.

The plural "ye" is identified as a SINGULAR "temple" in 1 Cor. 3:16 and that my friend is your problem.

 

[The Biblicist]

Spirit Baptism is a one time event. I have made that clear.....In post 74 I said this;

There is one common bond that unites all the elect from all time and places them into the eternal body of Christ, that is Spirit baptism. All of the benefits of the work of the cross are conferred upon all the elect at one point in time. What was planned and certain before the world was , is made actual upon the completion of the cross work being applied as the covering over all of the elect as they are quickened by the Spirit of God.

You fail to grasp it, or you disagree, that is up to you. Do not say I am dishonest or you bear false witness.

First, all the benefits of the cross are NOT conferred upon all the elect AT ONE POINT IN TIME! That is absurd! IF you are talking about OUTSIDE of time in God's eternal purpose, there is no actual conferring to the elect because they are non-existent as they are not even created. So you are confusing being CHOSEN “in Christ” with being BAPTIZED “in Christ.” We are “chosen UNTO salvation” through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth and these are TIME EVENTS and SUBJECTIVE in nature.


Second, if you are talking about the cross as the point in time then you are denying any such benefits were actually conferred EXPERIENTIALLY upon anyone previous to that point in time. Plently of Scripture repudiates that idea.


Third, the baptism in the Spirit is by your own definition the ACTION of being immersed into spiritual union with Christ.

Because Spirit baptism was a once for all time event, does not mean it has disappeared. The cross was a one time event, but it has not disappeared.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Either the baptism in the Spirit is an ACTION that places the individual into spiritual union with Christ or it is not! If it is an ACTION then it cannot be a “ONCE FOR ALL TIME EVENT” on Pentecost simply because all the elect were not present on earth in Jerusalem on Pentecost to partake of that ONE TIME EVENT. Jesus explicitly demands they do not LEAVE JERUSALEM because the baptism in the Spirit would occur THERE in that LOCATION “not many days hence” at the point in time called Pentecost.


Your theory is irrational, unbiblical and self-contradictory and anyone without bias can easily see that.

 

[The Biblicist]

Another example, the same truth;
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


Same as before.....In the time of Noah
the waters of the flood....were death....
eight souls were saved by water...
.the water cut off the ungodly line by death....
the eight souls by God's grace where rightly related to the judgment, they were in a place of safety.....the water did not cleanse them...it was death to the world of the ungodly....

water baptism...not the putting away of the filth of the flesh....but rather the answer of a good conscience before God.....BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.

Resurrection life is highlighted here.....only the Spirit accomplishes that.....
water can only show the reality of the unseen work of the Spirit.

What is it about the words "like figure" you don't understand? Peter is denying the very thing you are asserting about baptism. You are claiming baptism effects resurrection life but PEter is denying that.

THe literal flood waters LIFTED UP the ark which was a FIGURE of CHrist's resurrection. BAptism in literal water is just like that figure as the believer being lifted up out of the water is a figure of Christ rising up from the grave.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is one point in time that Spirit Baptism took place.....Pentecost, - Post #81

I think all elect persons for all time are baptized into Christ at ONE POINT IN TIME
Those before the cross and Pentecost, those after.

Just like the blood shed on the cross was effectual for all the elect for all time....I believe Jesus is building His body the church....which consists of All saints from all time.....Ot saints did not live at the time the One eternal church is being built, but the fact is they are spoken of as one in eternity with all other saints. – Iconoclast


Above is the summation of Iconoclast’s view according to his own words about the baptism in the Spirit.

His argument is summed up in claiming that if Christ’s blood can be shed as an action in one point in time and then applied at various points in time to each elect then the action of the baptism in the Spirit can happen in one point in time and be applied at various points in time to each elect.

However, the shedding of blood is a LEGAL JUDICIARY ACTION that by its very nature MUST be restricted to a ONE TIME EVENT (Heb. 10:10,14) because repetition would deny its sufficiency. At the point of regenerative faith the ACTION of shedding blood does not have to be repeated but simply applied. The singular act of shedding blood at the cross simply “justifies God” for applying it before the cross (Rom. 3:26).

However, in direct contrast, the baptism IN the Spirit, if we accept Iconoclast’s definition, is a SPIRITUAL ACTION that actually changes the spiritual condition of the elect from SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God unto SPIRITUAL UNION with God. The subjective condition of the elect in time is spiritual separation (death) until the point of regenerative faith in time (Eph. 2:1). According to that definition, its very nature DENIES it can be a ONE TIME COMPLETED ACTION ON PENTECOST but by necessity it must occur as an ACTION at the point in time of regenerative faith because the subjective condition of the elect prior to regenerative faith is one of spiritual separation from God (spiritually dead – Eph. 2:1). Therefore, if the baptism in the Spirit IS the ACTION of removal from spiritual separation (death) unto spiritual union, as Iconclast defines it, then by necessity it must be a reoccurring ACTION with each elect at the point of regenerative faith or else no removal from spiritual separation (death) to union with God (life) can occur. The shedding of blood is not a reoccurring action but the immersion in the Spirit (by Iconoclasts definition) must be a reoccurring action.

Secondly, he is confusing the baptism in the Spirit with regeneration as it is regeneration that actually brings the elect into spiritual union (life) with God (Eph. 2:1) as it is actually called being "quickened." Spiritual separation is separation from God who is life, light, holiness and love. Regeneration is a creative act of God (Eph. 2:10a) that unites the elect with God, thus uniting him with life, light, holiness and love of God.

Thirdly, the fact that the baptism in the Spirit is an historical event AFTER the cross, AFTER the ascension of Christ, it cannot be included in the redemptive work finished by Christ with regard to salvation but must be connected with SERVICE or else Christ never finished the work of redemption in his own body. It is not found in the old Testament, nor in the life of Christ because it has nothing to do with personal redemption but with public service - public confirmation of the institutional house for public worship (1 tim. 3:1-15).

Fourth, he is confusing being "CHOSEN" in Christ by eternal purpose with being IMMERSED in the Spirit which he admits occurred IN TIME. We are "In Christ" versus "in adam" prior to the point of regeneration only by ETERNAL PURPOSE. We were "in Adam" subjectively by BIRTH and we are "in Christ" subjectively by NEW BIRTH not by baptism.

 

[Jerome]

From Proceedings of the London Baptist Assembly of 1689, Questions Proposed and Resolved:

"Q. Whether believers were not actually reconciled to God, actually justified, and adopted, when Christ died?

A. That the reconciliation, justification, and adoption of believers, are infallibly secured by the gracious purpose of God, and merit of Jesus Christ. Yet none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, 11. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12."

 

[Van]

To restate the obvious, the views being asserted by those denying positional sanctification - God transferring us into Christ spiritually and indwelling us - are not orthodox Baptist views.

When does our "union with Christ occur? When God puts us into Christ.
The "one" baptism is our spiritual baptism into Christ and indwelling of the Spirit of Christ.
Water baptism accomplishes nothing but getting us wet, it symbolizes our spiritual baptism into Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

From Proceedings of the London Baptist Assembly of 1689, Questions Proposed and Resolved:

"Q. Whether believers were not actually reconciled to God, actually justified, and adopted, when Christ died?

A. That the reconciliation, justification, and adoption of believers, are infallibly secured by the gracious purpose of God, and merit of Jesus Christ. Yet none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, 11. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12."

Thank you. That supports precisely what I said in the previous post.

 

[The Biblicist]

To restate the obvious, the views being asserted by those denying positional sanctification - God transferring us into Christ spiritually and indwelling us - are not orthodox Baptist views.

You do not understand the basics. Spiritual separation is the state of natural born man from natural birth. That is the meaning of spiritual death (separation). Spiritual union is simply the reverse of that natural born state from birth. Without that reverse they continue in a state of spiritual separation(death).

Your irrational and unbiblical view leaves all before Pentecost spiritually separated (dead) all through their life and demands when their spirits separate from their bodies at physical death are dead (separated) spirits from God. Your idiotic view demands those who live "in the flesh" can do what WE CANNOT DO (Rom. 8:7-8) even as Spirit indwelt (Rom. 8:8-9).

When does our "union with Christ occur? When God puts us into Christ.
The "one" baptism is our spiritual baptism into Christ and indwelling of the Spirit of Christ.
Water baptism accomplishes nothing but getting us wet, it symbolizes our spiritual baptism into Christ.

Foolish and unbiblical babble