• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

1 Cor. 6:15 defines the nature of the TRUE body of Christ

Status
Not open for further replies.

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If this "universal church" is meeting NOW in Heaven are we skipping church? It will not, it cannot, be "universal" until ALL of us are present. :)
OK, I just disagree as many calvinists are wont to do with the word ALL
Rather than Universal it is the unseen" church - no Canaanites, no philistines, no tares, just NT born-again individuals past and present.

RE: Dr Clearwaters, OK, Fantastic read, I have a couple of disagreements.

The obvious concerning the New Jerusalem, the local church in the heavenlies. IMO It exists in the now.

Tithe:
While I exceed the tithe in my own giving I don't see it as a necessity of the NT churches.
A good place of blessing - but one has to grow into it - not forced especially by innuendo of poor spirituality:

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

I am also wondering about his exposition of episkope

It seems like he implies that "bishop" is an office in the local church as well as "pastor" and "deacon".

Well, after learning Greek and Church History, I have often wondered that myself.
Why the Baptist church(es) (as an institute) did not adopt the office of bishop (overseer) as well as pastor and deacon.

It seems historically to be somewhere between a pastor and an apostle in leadership serving as a pastor but over several local churches in geographical proximity.

My guess: It was too Catholic sounding (both Anglo and Roman).

An overseer-bishop of several local churches could easily devolve into a dictatorship or worse (pope)

However it does seem to be a legitimate office.
:)
HankD
 
Last edited:

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I repost the OP as no one has attempted to tackle it head on. Why? Because they cannot do it, that is why.
Lol. It's been cut to pieces, chewed, swallowed, and "passed into the draught," to borrow a biblical phrase.

And there it lays in all it's steamy glory. :Roflmao
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If this "universal church" is meeting NOW in Heaven are we skipping church? It will not, it cannot, be "universal" until ALL of us are present. :)
No, my present local church is in Olympia, WA (oops - Tumwater, WA) when I make my exodus to New Jerusalem, HV, I will go to the one there.
:)
HankD
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
It is a very COMMON SENSE rule of hermeutics or else you could taken any passage in scripture and READ INTO (eisgesis) it whatever your little heart wants to READ INTO it if the very subject you are demanding is not even mentioned!

Lol. Your rigid, made up rules don't allow for the manner in which words can and often are used and exchanged, especially when describing the operations of a Person, the Holy Ghost. Don't forget He is a Person and not a thing.

So when I say I am in Christ, or that Christ is in me, I'm not talking about location, I'm talking about a union, and the work of a Person. So whether I'm baptized with the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit, I'm talking about the same thing, and so are the Scriptures.

But even if location were an item, whether I say I am on the earth or in the earth, and both prepositions are used in the Bible, I mean the same thing. Or whether or a not a sword is filled with blood, or a head is filled with dew.

Quibble all you want about your trifles, there is one major context you are avoiding (and I don't blame you, because it pulls all the nails out of your neatly constructed little box) and that is when the Scriptures highlight that this or that individual is "filled with the Spirit," it is speaking of an extraordinary circumstance.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
OK, I just disagree as many calvinists are wont to do with the word ALL
"All" in this case means all of a specific group. "All" the redeemed. :)

I am also wondering about his exposition of episkope
He saw the three terms, Poimen - Shepherd/Pastor, Presbureros - Elder, and Episcopos - Bishop/Overseer, to be descriptive of different functions of the pastoral office.

Shepherd, Pastor: Emphasizes roll of feeder/protector of the flock of God ministry of the pastor.

Elder: Emphasizes the mature experience of the pastor.

Overseer, Bishop: Emphasizes the superintending/oversight of the ministry of the pastor.

Doc considered all of his pastoral staff as a sharing of the responsibilities of the pastoral office, yet also considered it necessary to have one man who had ultimate oversight of the entire ministry including those who share in the pastoral office.

The Deacons were servants whose job it was to take the mundane tasks so the pastoral staff is not burdened with things that would use up the time they should have been using in preparation for teaching/preaching, prayer, and personal ministry.

An overseer-bishop of several local churches could easily devolve into a dictatorship or worse
Doc did not think any one man could have responsibility for any church except one. Even with such organizations such as the Minnesota Baptist Association, of which he was, at one time, President, he consider the associations as a "rope of sand." It showed a visible connection but the Association could not exert any influence any more than you can pull on a rope of sand.

Keep reading. You'll like it.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
No, my present local church is in Olympia, WA (oops - Tumwater, WA) when I make my exodus to New Jerusalem, HV, I will go to the one there.
So you are not part of the universal church, yet? :D:D
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lol. Your rigid, made up rules don't allow for the manner in which words can and often are used and exchanged, especially when describing the operations of a Person, the Holy Ghost. Don't forget He is a Person and not a thing.

So when I say I am in Christ, or that Christ is in me, I'm not talking about location, I'm talking about a union, and the work of a Person. So whether I'm baptized with the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit, I'm talking about the same thing, and so are the Scriptures.

But even if location were an item, whether I say I am on the earth or in the earth, and both prepositions are used in the Bible, I mean the same thing. Or whether or a not a sword is filled with blood, or a head is filled with dew.

Quibble all you want about your trifles, there is one major context you are avoiding (and I don't blame you, because it pulls all the nails out of your neatly constructed little box) and that is when the Scriptures highlight that this or that individual is "filled with the Spirit," it is speaking of an extraordinary circumstance.

Obviously, your own opinion is your final authority not the scriptures, so it is pointless to continue this discussion. I have placed before you numerous times the very same problem of a TIME FIXED baptism in the Spirit to Pentecost and you NEVER deal with it and so what is the point of discussing when you won't even face the Biblical evidence against your theory.
 
Last edited:

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. - 1 Cor. 6:15

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. - 1 Cor. 12:12

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. - 1 Cor. 12:27

In our first text above, Paul declares that their PHYSICAL HUMAN BODIES are "members of Christ". The fact that the physical bodies are "members of Christ" demands that Paul is speaking "of Christ" metaphorically rather than literally as no literal plurality of physical human bodies could be literal physical members of the literal physical body of Christ - besides, his literal physical body is located in heaven not on earth.

So he is speaking of the metaphorical "body of Christ." The only possible kind of metaphorical body of Christ that has PHYSICAL BODIES as members is the kind that requires visiblity, because physical bodies are visible, and requires located space because physical bodies require actual geographical space. The kind that actually visibly assembles "in one place" because physical bodies can only be found "in one place." The only kind of baptism that can bring members into this metaphorical relationship as "the body of Christ" is water baptism as that is the only kind of baptism that the physical body can be subjected to (1 Cor. 3:5-16; 12:13).

The metaphorical body described in the book of Corinthians is not a universal invisible entity but a located assembly of human bodies consisting of those who had been saved and baptized and formed (1 Cor. 3:5-9) into a metaphorical "temple of the Holy Spirit" at Corinth (1 Cor. 3:10-16).

As I previously demonstrated in another thread, the unleavened bread used in the Lord's Supper represented THIS KIND of metaphorical body of Christ, that could have members removed from the "whole lump" so that it became a "new" lump.

This metaphorical body of Christ located at Corinth ("the whole lump") consisted of "ye" but not "we" and therefore did not include all true Christians on earth. Only as an institutional body does "we" come into this picture.

Now Gentleman, you must demonstrate how physical human bodies can be part of your universal invisible Reformed Catholic invented doctrine of the church. Good luck!

I reposted the OP in order to get us back on track. This text demands the nature of the body of Christ being taught by Paul in this epistles is by necessity VISIBLE and LOCAL as it is CONSISTS of VISIBLE LOCALIZED PHYSICAL BODIES as "members" and the "body" is nothing more or less than its "members."
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Obviously, your own opinion is your final authority not the scriptures, so it is pointless to continue this discussion. I have placed before you numerous times the very same problem of a TIME FIXED baptism in the Spirit to Pentecost and you NEVER deal with it and so what is the point of discussing when you won't even face the Biblical evidence against your theory.
Wait! wait! wait! It's my turn now.

You haven't dealt with my argument because you CAN'T! :Roflmao:Biggrin:Roflmao

Lol!

You OBVIOUSLY, have a BIAS based on ARBITRARY ASSUMPTION and CARNAL REASONING!

Lol! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wait! wait! wait! It's my turn now.

You haven't dealt with my argument because you CAN'T! :Roflmao:Biggrin:Roflmao

Lol!

You OBVIOUSLY, have a BIAS based on ARBITRARY ASSUMPTION and CARNAL REASONING!

Lol! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
This is what the ignore button is all about!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Biblicist,
I have already completely repudiated this faulty interpretation of hebrews 12:18-25. The very same perfect tense verb used for the ekklesia of firstborn ones is used for the Jewish ekklesia at Mount Sinai. The ekklesia of Christ came into the presence of heaven exactly as did the jewish ekklesia at Mount Sinai - same tense - same way. Neither left earth for heaven, but both ekklesias were brought into the presence of heaven while still on earth.

This is not correct however...there is a dramatic contrast....they could not touch the mountain....they had to keep at a distance and have the mediator Moses approach on their behalf.

In Contrast...those in Hebrews 12:22 have direct access In Christ.
FROM PRECEPTAUSTIN;
Have come(4334) (proserchomai from prós = facing + erchomai = come) means literally to come facing toward and so to approach or come near. To come to visit or associate with. It describes the approach to or entry into a deity’s presence. In the Septuagint (LXX) proserchomai was the verb used to describe the approach of the priests to Jehovah for worship and to perform of their priestly (Levitical) functions. But here in Hebrews, under the New covenant, all seven uses of proserchomai refer to believers possessing the privilege of access to God the Father through Christ the Great High Priest. The writer uses the PERFECT TENSE which views this heavenly possession of Mt Zion as already attained by those who have believed the new covenant and emphasizes that this heavenly possession is their possession forever. In spirit they were residents of the city already, though in body they were strangers and aliens on earth. That there is yet to be an earthly manifestation of the city is clear from the later reference in Hebrews 13:14-note to “the city which is yet to come.”

and again;
The Nelson Study Bible nicely summarizes this section noting that "In these verses, the author of Hebrews contrasts the Mosaic covenant with the New Covenant by contrasting two mountains: Mount Sinai and Mount Zion. At Mount Sinai, the Israelites received the Law from God with fear and trembling, for God displayed at that time His awesome power (see Ex 19:10-20:26). In contrast, Christian believers have come to a heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion through Jesus’ blood. This mountain is a celebration of the Holy One, attended by angels, believers, and righteous people. The author makes the contrast between the two covenants vivid, and then once again exhorts his readers not to reject Christ’s offer of salvation (see Hebrews 12:25-29).(Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. The Nelson Study Bible: NKJV. Nashville: Thomas Nelson)


Longman on Hebrews 12:22-24 - These verses form one long sentence, which begins with the strongly contrasting clause But you have come to and continues with a series of nine descriptive phrases identifying the place and the people that represent the Christian’s true destination (In the Greek, each of the nine phrases is introduced by “and” except for “the heavenly Jerusalem,” which stands in apposition to “the city of the living God.” The first three phrases identify the place, while the remainder speak of its inhabitants). For have come to (proserchomai) as a term for the relationship with God that results from Christ’s saving work, see Heb 4:16-note; Heb 7:2-note, and cf. Heb 10:22-note; Heb 11:6-note. It is important to note that the author speaks not merely of a future hope (as he did when speaking of the patriarchs in Heb 11:10, 13–16) but of a salvation already achieved—“you have come”; those who belong to Christ are already citizens of Mount Zion. The author is calling them not to a new status but to appreciate and enjoy what is already theirs. (Ed: This begs the question beloved - do we understand our new status? Do we truly give thanks to God for our new status? We can hardly do so if we don't comprehend this aspect of what Jesus accomplished for us). (Expositor's Bible Commentary)

Here are the seven uses of this proserchomai in Hebrews...

Hebrews 4:16 (note) Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. (Comment: "Let us..." emphasizes that this privilege is always available to those under the New Covenant. Do we really comprehend and avail ourselves of the profundity of this privilege?)

Hebrews 7:25 (note) Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near (present tense = emphasizes continual activity) to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 10:1 (note) For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near.

Hebrews 10:22 (note) let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 11:6 (note) And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes (drawn near) to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Hebrews 12:18 (note) For you have not come (drawn near) to a mountain that may be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,

Hebrews 12:22 (note) But you have come (drawn near) to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You suggested i was offering mystical novelties and yet these people agree with what i offered.

Christians are now citizens of the heavenly city and enjoy its privileges. Paul wrote that believers are enrolled as citizens of heaven even while on earth Paul explaining that "our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior the Lord Jesus Christ (Php 3:20-note)

We are in Mount Zion by virtue of our incorporation in Christ as explained above. To reiterate, the use of the perfect tense (have come) emphasizes our permanent, continuing state. This is why the seemingly endless miles of life’s marathon and the inevitable heartbreak hills should not deter us from pressing on toward the goal, running the race with endurance.. We are both in Zion and yet at the same time are marching to Zion!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wuest writes that "The words “general assembly” are the translation of paneguris (πανεγυρις), “a festal gathering of the whole people to celebrate public games or other solemnities” (classical meaning). Here it refers to a festal gathering of the holy angels, and to the saints of God, living and dead.

Spurgeon on this phrase festal gathering - I suppose he speaks of all the saints after the death and resurrection of our Lord and the descent of the Holy Ghost. He refers to the whole church, in the midst of which the Holy Spirit now dwells. We are come to a more joyous sight than Sinai, and the mountain burning with fire. The Hebrew worshiper, apart from his sacrifices, lived continually beneath the shadow of the darkness of a broken law. He was startled often by the tremendous note of the trumpet—which threatened judgment for that broken law—and thus he lived ever in a condition of bondage.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe in local churches here on earth, but I believe the one universal church is existing and being built and will fully assemble on the last day.

{We are members of the Church Universal, citizens of the Heavenly City. Heirs of that precious Redemption, which has severed us from things that are seen, and made us part of that blessed throng that no man can number--"the general Assembly and Church of the First-born, which are written in heaven." Neither life, nor death, nor rite, nor church-order, can divide those who are for ever one with each other because they are one with Christ. Nothing but sin and obtuseness of soul can exclude us from living fellowship with saints of all communions and sects, denominations and ages.}
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AND TO THE SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT: kai pneumasi dikaion teteleiomenon (RPPMPG): (Spirits - He 11:4,40 Eccl 12:7 1Co 13:12, 15:49,54, 2Co 5:8 Php 1:21, 22, 23, Php 3:12-21, Col 1:12 Rev 7:14, 15, 16, 16, 17)

The righteous men - As to the meaning of this phrase Stedman observes that "Commentators have differed over whether this describes “believers of pre-Christian days” (Bruce) or “New Testament believers” (Bengel). It likely looks back to Hebrews 11:40 and the Old Testament saints who would be made perfect “together with us.” Since it is their spirits which have been made perfect and not their bodies, it suggests that these saints, who lived before the Cross, are waiting with us for the resurrection to come. Jesus spoke to the Jews of “other sheep [Gentiles] that are not of this sheep pen.” “They too,” he added, “will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (Jn 10:16). As we have already noted, when the heavenly Jerusalem comes to earth, as John sees it in Revelation 21:2 (see note), these words will be fulfilled. Its gates are named for the twelve tribes of Israel, and its foundation stones bear the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Hebrews 12:18-24 Blessings Now Possible)

The OT saints, who were saved by the gospel by grace through faith just as are NT saints (see Ge 15:6, Hab 2:4, Gal 3:8) waited for centuries for the perfection we received when we trusted Christ, because that came only with Christ’s death and His finished, perfecting work on the Cross, "“For by one (sacrificial) offering He has perfected (perfect tense = speaks of the permanent effect of this offering) for all time those who are sanctified (present tense = being daily, continually set apart from the world and unto God, so called present tense salvation - see Three Tenses of Salvation). ” (Hebrews 10:14-note).

The OT saints, justified by faith, they stand in spotless purity because the value of Christ’s work has been imputed to their account. They await the time when the grave will yield up its ancient charges and they will receive glorified bodies, probably not at the rapture but at the end of this present church age, at the inception of the Messianic age (cp Da 12:13).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top