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Featured 1 Cor. 6:15 defines the nature of the TRUE body of Christ

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by The Biblicist, Oct 31, 2016.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I do admit brother b of not dealing specifically with the specified text. However your challenge at the end of the opening post IMO needed a more explicit definition of the "universal" and "invisible" church. There was no mention of the body of Christ in the challenge, you used the word "church" in the challenge.

    Intuitively I am inclined to agree with you concerning the "body of Christ" having a different nuance and maybe even a different meaning from "church" however in my view the "body of Christ" signifies the regenerate and not one from a possible mixed multitude and yes even a believer who is sinful ( e.g joining with a harlot).

    HankD
     
    #41 HankD, Nov 2, 2016
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Ok, but if the metaphor used in 1 Corinthians is inclusive of physical visible bodies then that denies it is either universal or invisible as physical members are not universal or invisible.
     
    #42 The Biblicist, Nov 2, 2016
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    As the "universal church" is made up of all believers alive and dead, how do they all fit in one little church house, house, or gymnasium?

    Yes, we know. But the question was about the earthly leadership. :)

    And who would they be? How can I contact them? I checked every church directory I can find and can't find anybody listed as "Pastor, Universal Church." :)

    I can't help notice you dodged the question. :)

    What does that have to do with the etymology or philology of εκκλησια?

    What does that have to do with the primacy of the church as God's chosen method of reaching the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

    I am sorry my friend, but you do. :)
    Excellent. I will pray that God uses it to enlighten and edify you. :)
     
    #43 TCassidy, Nov 2, 2016
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    "In my Father's house are many mansions". Folks in America assemble in America, in china they assemble in China, in the heavenlies they assemble in one of the mansion Jesus prepared for us.:)
    My answer was for both earthly and in the heavenlies. Take your pick.

    Don't need a phone. Get on your knees and let Him know what you want/need.

    I can't help notice you dodged the question. :)
    Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich ...
    Hopefully you will enter heaven with a great deal of this gold Jesus speaks of (I believe you will Tom :))

    Well, Jesus promised a place in a heavenly mansion for His church members, so its the special place of assembly in heaven.
    I know many scholars don't like the phrase "called out ones" but apparently it had that meaning for a long time according to Kittels. Anyway I don't believe anyone looses their membership when they exodus from earth to heaven having been called out of the world to a life of faith.:)

    Nothing, they have been reached and have gone on to be with him.:)


    Well. I know you feel that way. But I believe I can hold to my definition of the "universal" church as well as the standard Baptist view of the local church in the Baptist distinctives (GARBC). Some on earth some in heaven, one day all in heaven:)
    Thank you Tom.
    I need some time to do the read though. Between church ministries (Deacon/senior citizens teacher/worker/visitation) and visits to the clinic my time has been diminished. While you are at it pray for my physical body (its wearing out) which goes to a local church and heavenly places simultaneously.:Smile

    Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    OK, off to our small group meeting, see you tomorrow - Deo volente.

    :)
    HankD
     
    #44 HankD, Nov 2, 2016
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK, as I said then the "body of Christ" in my thinking is not a completely replaceable term for "the church".

    I'll do a differential analysis and read Dr Toms suggested book.

    HankD
     
    #45 HankD, Nov 2, 2016
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So your "universal church" is an unassembled assembly? How does that work?

    But my question was for heavenly leaders. What is the Senior Pastor's name? The Chairman of the Deacon's name? The Song Leader's name?

    I should pray to men, either living or dead? Isn't that idolatry?

    But we are talking about earthly money put in an earthly offering.

    I agree. So, you do see that the "universal church" does not, as yet, exist, but will exist after the consummation of the ages?

    You realize that "universal" is "catholic" in both Latin and Greek, right?

    I know the feeling! Hang in there! :)
     
    #46 TCassidy, Nov 2, 2016
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK I just got back from our small group meeting.

    Tom this could go on all night into the next day and maybe beyond. You know that I am fully capable to play this verbal ping pong. But no one will be edified and I am easily wearied and prone to stress these days.
    I probably shouldn't have gotten involved in this discussion.
    :)
    In summary it appears that you just don't accept the the idea that the "universal" church is valid terminology.
    OK.
    :)
    Personally I don't like the terminology "universal church" either for one of the reasons you give.
    It's too Catholic sounding. Folks can go back through the archives and see that I have always said that very thing.

    I don't like "invisible" either it's to spooky. So I use "universal" because it is the lesser of two evils (IMO).
    So after 15 years of doing this battle I don't think I will change my view on this doctrine.
    :)
    I also use the phrase "the church as an institution" which doesn't stir up the beehive so badly.

    The "universal church" is the collective group of all regenerated individuals from Matthew 16:18 until Jesus returns.

    It is the unseen church of true believers known only to God.

    OK I don't know all the details of what goes on in the church in the heavenlies but I'm sure Jesus knows how to run His church in heaven. He is the pastor, who he assigns to other functions I don't know but I will find out when I make my exodus (which may be soon).

    So I will bow out for now.

    I will read the book - Deo volente.

    :)

    HankD
     
    #47 HankD, Nov 2, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Hank, why don't you simply choose the terms provided in Scripture for what you are trying to define and it is not the word "church" or "body of Christ" the Bible provides but the terms "kingdom" and "family"

    Some Apparent Differences


    Eph. 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

    1 Cor. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    1 Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,

    Furthermore, the following lessons will sustain these are to be distinguished from one another rather than interpreted as synonyms.


    1. The difference of terminology and meaning:

    a. "Family" - Greek "patria" - those fathered – lineage

    b. "Kingdom" - Greek "basilea" - the rule and realm and Person of a king

    c. "Church" - Greek "ekklesia" - congregation, assembly


    2. The different applications

    a. The Bible speaks of the “gospel of the kingdom” but never uses such language for the

    family or church.


    b. The Bible speaks of the “keys of the kingdom” but never uses such language for the church

    or family of God.


    c. The term “member” is never used in scripture to describe those in God’s kingdom or family

    but only those in churches.


    d. The church is called a “body” and “building” but the kingdom and family are never thus

    called.


    e. Jesus says “tell it to the church” but never says tell it to the kingdom or family.


    f. The terms “kingdom” and “family” are only found in the singular but the term “church” is

    found in the plural (36 times) and in the singular (79 times).


    g. A “brother” can be placed outside the church membership by other brethren exercising

    church discipline, but no human disciplinary action can remove any “brother” outside the

    kingdom and family of God. – 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6,14.


    h. The professing kingdom contains “tares” (Mt. 13:41) and the church contains persons like

    Judas, but the family of God only contains true born again believers.


    i. The Kingdom and family contain persons without water baptism (all pre-New Testament

    believers and unbaptized believers in this age), but church membership is for only water

    baptized professed believers – Acts 2:41-42


    j. We read of ‘elders” and “apostles” in the church but no such officers are ever used to

    describe those in the kingdom and family.


    k. Geographical names are given to the church – “the church of God at Corinth” but no such

    geographical language is ever used for the kingdom and family of God.


    l. The church is described as being “built” and “fitly framed” but the kingdom is announced as

    “near at hand.” Neither the kingdom or family are said to be “built” or “fitly framed.”


    3. The Difference in Nature

    a. The church conveys an autonomous democratic body

    b. The kingdom conveys a sovereign rule by a king

    c. The family conveys a paternal relationship between a father and his children


    4. The difference in relationship to God

    a. "Family" - relationship is defined as "children"

    b. "Kingdom" relationship is defined as "citizens"

    c. "Church" - relationship is defined as "members"


    5. The difference in size

    a. "Family" includes all saints in heaven and presently on earth - Eph. 3:15

    b. "Kingdom" –Is God’s rule over the entire universe but in regard to his spiritual kingdom

    on earth it includes only “the seed” presently on earth at any given time - Mt. 13

    c. "Church" – includes baptized believers gathered out of God's kingdom and family on earth

    who actually assemble together - Acts 2:41


    6. The difference in entrance

    a. "Family" is by birth "born" a child of God - I Jn. 3:18

    b. “Kingdom" is by translation/birth - Col. 1:13/Jn. 3:3-6

    c. "Church" is by water baptism - Acts 2:41



    7. The difference in origin


    a. “Kingdom” began with creation of this universe (Psa. 103:19) while the spiritual kingdom

    on earth began with the first person saved from the fall (Adam) in Genesis thus born into

    the kingdom of his dear son (Col. 1:13; Gen. 3:15; Acts 10:43). The professing kingdom

    consists of the professed saved (true seed and tares) – Mt. 13


    b. “Family” began with new birth of first child of God – Gen. 3:15 (new birth prior to

    Pentecost – Jn. 3:3-11; Ezek. 44:7)


    c. “Church” began with Christ’s First Advent and with the materials prepared by John the

    Baptist – Acts 1:21-22; Lk. 1:17; – and first gifted officers set in the church – 1 Cor. 12:28.

    First members and Foundation of church are found in the New Testament, not the Old

    Testament (Eph. 2:20.


    8. The difference in internal relationships


    a. "Family" persons can exist outside of the church - 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6; Acts10:43


    b. "Kingdom" persons can exist outside of the church - Acts 10:43; 2 Thes. 3:6


    c. "Church" persons can be removed from the church but not from the family or kingdom by

    discipline - 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6



    9. The difference in location


    a. "Family" persons are located in heaven and on earth - Eph.3:15


    b. "Kingdom" persons are located throughout the world - Mt. 13:38 - "the field is the world"


    c. "Church" located in one geographical spot - 1 Cor. 1:2 "The church of God WHICH IS AT

    Corinth"

    10. The difference in what unites


    a. “Family” unity is by common birth, common Spirit, and common Father. – Rom. 8:9; Jn.

    3:3-6


    b. “Kingdom” unity is by common rule and professed allegiance to the same King. – Mt. 13


    c. “Church” unity is by common doctrine, profession and baptism. – Acts 2:41-42



    11. The difference in relationship to the gospel and salvation


    a. "Family" All who are genuinely saved by the same gospel, same way, same savior in

    connection with new birth


    b. "Kingdom" All the saved and professed saved by the same gospel, way, Savior – Mt. 13:38


    c. "Church" All who publicly profess to be already in God’s family and Kingdom BEFORE

    they can be received into church membership by water baptism - Acts 2:41-42



    12. There is a contrasting kingdom, family and church


    a. Kingdom of darkness – Col. 1:13 – “the world” system – Jn. 17:9


    b. Family of Satan – Jn. 8:44; Gen. 3:15 “seed” “tares” etc.


    c. Church of Satan – Rev. 17:5; 18:4 – “synagogue of Satan” – Rev. 2:9; “corrupted” virgins

    (2 Cor. 11:3-4)



    13. There is a difference in the New Creation


    a. "Family" many “saved” will live outside the New Jerusalem on new earth - Rev. 21:24 and

    be guests at wedding - Rev. 19:8-9 and have the “leaves” of the tree of life – Rev. 22:2


    b. "Kingdom" many “saved” will live outside of New Jerusalem on new earth - Rev. 21:24

    and be guest at wedding - Rev. 19:8-9 and will have the “leaves” of the tree of life – Rev.

    22:2


    c. "Church" is the bride dressed in white (Rev. 19:6-7) and will eat of the tree of life (Rev.

    2:7) and live inside the city (Rev. 22:1-3)
     
    #48 The Biblicist, Nov 3, 2016
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  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Who says it has to say "church"? That's just some arbitrary hermeneutical rule you pulled out of your rear.

    The church (or congregation) is an organism. It springs from one Root, and has many branches.

    But if you must have the word "church," the church is one body, with one Head. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
     
    #49 Aaron, Nov 3, 2016
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  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Duly noted.

    HankD
     
    #50 HankD, Nov 3, 2016
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Where does this assembly assemble?

    Where does this unseen assembly assemble. And, as it is unseen (invisible?) how do you know it is assembled?

    Does that mean that those of us still here on earth are NOT members of the "universal church" as we are not in heaven and you say "Jesus knows how to run His church in heaven."

    Again you argue against your own position. The church universal does not yet exist and will only exist when all the redeemed are assembled together in heaven. :)

    You shoulda quit while you were ahead. (Oh, wait, you never were!) :D:D:D:D

    Good. Doc had a way of making complex issues seem very simple. :)
     
    #51 TCassidy, Nov 3, 2016
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Tom, you are up early. :)


    I love this book!
    FWIW - So far I have no differences of opinion or interpretation.
    :)
    HankD
     
    #52 HankD, Nov 3, 2016
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Not very. I got up about 5 AM. I don't sleep well due to the constant pain. :)

    Good book. Spells things out pretty clearly. :)
     
    #53 TCassidy, Nov 3, 2016
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Pain, yes been there done that.
    You are on my prayer list.

    And RE: The NT book:
    Yes, I have modified my view a bit. The "heavenly" church is "located" in the New Jerusalem.
    I know he believes it is a future entity but that's my only difference with him for the moment.

    I really don't like the term "universal" church for all the reasons he gives.
    But then again I am a former Roman Catholic with prejudice.

    Thanks again, it's a rare read that I enjoy, obviously (to me anyway) he is a godly man.

    HankD
     
    #54 HankD, Nov 3, 2016
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This post is constructive in that in working through the various descriptions we can better understand who we are and how we are to function here and now based on who we are in the purpose of God.
    CAUTION needs to be used in sorting through these truths as he danger would be if one comes to a wrong conclusion it will ripple through their whole theology .
     
    #55 Iconoclast, Nov 3, 2016
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    In Heavenly places.
    Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
     
    #56 Aaron, Nov 3, 2016
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your text says NOTHING about the church or body of Christ. This text can easily be understood to refer to our LEGAL POSITION in Christ or s spiritual union by way of QUICKENING (vv. 1,5,10) as it is through regeneration, which is by the "will of God" (Jn. 1:13; James 1:18) as a CREATIVE act of God (Eph. 2:10) that we are "in Christ." Your text does not mention or demand any kind of "church" relationship.
     
    #57 The Biblicist, Nov 3, 2016
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It is a very COMMON SENSE rule of hermeutics or else you could taken any passage in scripture and READ INTO (eisgesis) it whatever your little heart wants to READ INTO it if the very subject you are demanding is not even mentioned! At minimum it requires that you be honest enough to admit you are making an INFERENCE as the text says NOTHING about the church in explicit language. However, UIC people are not honest interpreters of scripture but FORCE their views upon scripture by ignoring basic rules of hermeneutics.

    And from what context where the "church" is mentioned explicitly do you get that idea????

    And who denies that???? We don't? We simply interpret the text in keeping with the normal historical usage of the term ekklesia. One normal historical use is the abstract institutional sense. That sense fits perfectly without inventing a new kind of meaning which UIC people have to invent to defend their doctrine. Another violation of basic 101 hermeneutics.
     
    #58 The Biblicist, Nov 3, 2016
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    If this "universal church" is meeting NOW in Heaven are we skipping church? It will not, it cannot, be "universal" until ALL of us are present. :)

    Here is a bio and tribute to him. (He died in 1996, aged 96 years.)
    http://aletheiabaptistministries.org/Blog/richard-v-clearwaters-by-rick-shrader/

    Here are some other books written by him.

    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byl...learwaters&sort=relevancerank&tag=baptis04-20
     
    #59 TCassidy, Nov 3, 2016
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I repost the OP as no one has attempted to tackle it head on. Why? Because they cannot do it, that is why.
     
    #60 The Biblicist, Nov 3, 2016
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