Featured 1 Cor. 6:15 defines the nature of the TRUE body of Christ

OK, I just disagree as many calvinists are wont to do with the word ALL
Rather than Universal it is the unseen" church - no Canaanites, no philistines, no tares, just NT born-again individuals past and present.

RE: Dr Clearwaters, OK, Fantastic read, I have a couple of disagreements.

The obvious concerning the New Jerusalem, the local church in the heavenlies. IMO It exists in the now.

Tithe:
While I exceed the tithe in my own giving I don't see it as a necessity of the NT churches.
A good place of blessing - but one has to grow into it - not forced especially by innuendo of poor spirituality:

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

I am also wondering about his exposition of episkope

It seems like he implies that "bishop" is an office in the local church as well as "pastor" and "deacon".

Well, after learning Greek and Church History, I have often wondered that myself.
Why the Baptist church(es) (as an institute) did not adopt the office of bishop (overseer) as well as pastor and deacon.

It seems historically to be somewhere between a pastor and an apostle in leadership serving as a pastor but over several local churches in geographical proximity.

My guess: It was too Catholic sounding (both Anglo and Roman).

An overseer-bishop of several local churches could easily devolve into a dictatorship or worse (pope)

However it does seem to be a legitimate office.

HankD

 

That's the thing about eternal things. We are there now.

 

Lol. It's been cut to pieces, chewed, swallowed, and "passed into the draught," to borrow a biblical phrase.

And there it lays in all it's steamy glory.

 

No, my present local church is in Olympia, WA (oops - Tumwater, WA) when I make my exodus to New Jerusalem, HV, I will go to the one there.

HankD

 

Lol. Your rigid, made up rules don't allow for the manner in which words can and often are used and exchanged, especially when describing the operations of a Person, the Holy Ghost. Don't forget He is a Person and not a thing.

So when I say I am in Christ, or that Christ is in me, I'm not talking about location, I'm talking about a union, and the work of a Person. So whether I'm baptized with the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit, I'm talking about the same thing, and so are the Scriptures.

But even if location were an item, whether I say I am on the earth or in the earth, and both prepositions are used in the Bible, I mean the same thing. Or whether or a not a sword is filled with blood, or a head is filled with dew.

Quibble all you want about your trifles, there is one major context you are avoiding (and I don't blame you, because it pulls all the nails out of your neatly constructed little box) and that is when the Scriptures highlight that this or that individual is "filled with the Spirit," it is speaking of an extraordinary circumstance.

 

Cute

For now I am there in the spirit seated in the heavenlies.

One day I will be there body, soul and spirit.



HankD

 

OK.

 

Wait! wait! wait! It's my turn now.

You haven't dealt with my argument because you CAN'T!

Lol!

You OBVIOUSLY, have a BIAS based on ARBITRARY ASSUMPTION and CARNAL REASONING!

Lol!

 

The Biblicist,

This is not correct however...there is a dramatic contrast....they could not touch the mountain....they had to keep at a distance and have the mediator Moses approach on their behalf.

In Contrast...those in Hebrews 12:22 have direct access In Christ.
FROM PRECEPTAUSTIN;
Have come(4334) (proserchomai from prós = facing + erchomai = come) means literally to come facing toward and so to approach or come near. To come to visit or associate with. It describes the approach to or entry into a deity’s presence. In the Septuagint (LXX) proserchomai was the verb used to describe the approach of the priests to Jehovah for worship and to perform of their priestly (Levitical) functions. But here in Hebrews, under the New covenant, all seven uses of proserchomai refer to believers possessing the privilege of access to God the Father through Christ the Great High Priest. The writer uses the PERFECT TENSE which views this heavenly possession of Mt Zion as already attained by those who have believed the new covenant and emphasizes that this heavenly possession is their possession forever. In spirit they were residents of the city already, though in body they were strangers and aliens on earth. That there is yet to be an earthly manifestation of the city is clear from the later reference in Hebrews 13:14-note to “the city which is yet to come.”

and again;

Here are the seven uses of this proserchomai in Hebrews...

Hebrews 4:16 (note) Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. (Comment: "Let us..." emphasizes that this privilege is always available to those under the New Covenant. Do we really comprehend and avail ourselves of the profundity of this privilege?)

Hebrews 7:25 (note) Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near (present tense = emphasizes continual activity) to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 10:1 (note) For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near.

Hebrews 10:22 (note) let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 11:6 (note) And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes (drawn near) to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Hebrews 12:18 (note) For you have not come (drawn near) to a mountain that may be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,

Hebrews 12:22 (note) But you have come (drawn near) to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels

 

You suggested i was offering mystical novelties and yet these people agree with what i offered.

Christians are now citizens of the heavenly city and enjoy its privileges. Paul wrote that believers are enrolled as citizens of heaven even while on earth Paul explaining that "our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior the Lord Jesus Christ (Php 3:20-note)

We are in Mount Zion by virtue of our incorporation in Christ as explained above. To reiterate, the use of the perfect tense (have come) emphasizes our permanent, continuing state. This is why the seemingly endless miles of life’s marathon and the inevitable heartbreak hills should not deter us from pressing on toward the goal, running the race with endurance.. We are both in Zion and yet at the same time are marching to Zion!

 

Wuest writes that "The words “general assembly” are the translation of paneguris (πανεγυρις), “a festal gathering of the whole people to celebrate public games or other solemnities” (classical meaning). Here it refers to a festal gathering of the holy angels, and to the saints of God, living and dead.

Spurgeon on this phrase festal gathering - I suppose he speaks of all the saints after the death and resurrection of our Lord and the descent of the Holy Ghost. He refers to the whole church, in the midst of which the Holy Spirit now dwells. We are come to a more joyous sight than Sinai, and the mountain burning with fire. The Hebrew worshiper, apart from his sacrifices, lived continually beneath the shadow of the darkness of a broken law. He was startled often by the tremendous note of the trumpet—which threatened judgment for that broken law—and thus he lived ever in a condition of bondage.

 

I believe in local churches here on earth, but I believe the one universal church is existing and being built and will fully assemble on the last day.

{We are members of the Church Universal, citizens of the Heavenly City. Heirs of that precious Redemption, which has severed us from things that are seen, and made us part of that blessed throng that no man can number--"the general Assembly and Church of the First-born, which are written in heaven." Neither life, nor death, nor rite, nor church-order, can divide those who are for ever one with each other because they are one with Christ. Nothing but sin and obtuseness of soul can exclude us from living fellowship with saints of all communions and sects, denominations and ages.}

 

AND TO THE SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT: kai pneumasi dikaion teteleiomenon (RPPMPG): (Spirits - He 11:4,40 Eccl 12:7 1Co 13:12, 15:49,54, 2Co 5:8 Php 1:21, 22, 23, Php 3:12-21, Col 1:12 Rev 7:14, 15, 16, 16, 17)

The righteous men - As to the meaning of this phrase Stedman observes that "Commentators have differed over whether this describes “believers of pre-Christian days” (Bruce) or “New Testament believers” (Bengel). It likely looks back to Hebrews 11:40 and the Old Testament saints who would be made perfect “together with us.” Since it is their spirits which have been made perfect and not their bodies, it suggests that these saints, who lived before the Cross, are waiting with us for the resurrection to come. Jesus spoke to the Jews of “other sheep [Gentiles] that are not of this sheep pen.” “They too,” he added, “will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (Jn 10:16). As we have already noted, when the heavenly Jerusalem comes to earth, as John sees it in Revelation 21:2 (see note), these words will be fulfilled. Its gates are named for the twelve tribes of Israel, and its foundation stones bear the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Hebrews 12:18-24 Blessings Now Possible)

The OT saints, who were saved by the gospel by grace through faith just as are NT saints (see Ge 15:6, Hab 2:4, Gal 3:8) waited for centuries for the perfection we received when we trusted Christ, because that came only with Christ’s death and His finished, perfecting work on the Cross, "“For by one (sacrificial) offering He has perfected (perfect tense = speaks of the permanent effect of this offering) for all time those who are sanctified (present tense = being daily, continually set apart from the world and unto God, so called present tense salvation - see Three Tenses of Salvation). ” (Hebrews 10:14-note).

The OT saints, justified by faith, they stand in spotless purity because the value of Christ’s work has been imputed to their account. They await the time when the grave will yield up its ancient charges and they will receive glorified bodies, probably not at the rapture but at the end of this present church age, at the inception of the Messianic age (cp Da 12:13).