Mid Trib Rapture

In that night

Midnight in this context is referring simply to the night itself, as in not the day light hours. The Jewish day began (begins) at sundown and continues until the morrow (tomorrow) sunset.

The illustation points to the escape of the Bride to occur during the night ours of that day (like a thief in the night)(any part of that night for us since we are unaware of its timing), which takes place before the rising of the sun "in that day" (The day of Great Tribulation).

In essence, after the close of the Church Age, before the dawn (onset) of the Great Tribulation, in that (the same day) night that proceeds it. RevJW

 

I noticed that. And there are some other things that seem to point towards midnight/midtrib that perhaps you could explain to me. 1) Rev 12:5 -- it seems that the gap between "brought forth" and "caught up" ends, not with the rapture, but with the midtrib when the "woman" flees to the wilderness. 2) Mt 25:6 uses the term "midnight." 3) We know there is a special rapture at midtrib -- of the 2 witnesses.

Anyway, I agree with you about the meaning of midnight but when I thought you were advocating a midtrib rapture, the words of J. Vernon McGee came back to me. I think he also thought midtrib.

Of course, 1Thes 5:4-9; Rev 3:10; Rev 4:1 (with Jn 21:22-23); 2Cor 12:2 (with Heb 12:22-24); 2Thes 1:6-7, 2:3, 6-7, 10; Mt 13:31-32; (did I forget any?) all militate for a pretrib rapture. :thumbs:

Yet if we could perceive that it was night (perhaps by seeing the seals opened), we would quickly come upon a timing model for the rapture, no?

Well, to me "onset of night" would be the first 3 1/2 years -- the trib of which Paul speaks in 2Thes 1:6 and 1Thes 5:4 (notice he even uses "that day" - DOTL - which belongs to Israel, the 70th week of Daniel).

 

Terminology

Well, we are not on the same page due to terminology. I contend and teach that there is only one event that can properly be termed The Rapture as believed by evangelicals to be a Pre-Tribulational event, and technically that is not correct because of translation. The term “rapture” is derived from the Latin translated into the Greek as “caught up”. There will be several caught up events throughout the Great Tribulation, but they will be accomplished through the process of resurrection of the physically departed. There is only one “alive and remain” event and it will occur before the Great Tribulation, and unfortunately it has been termed The Rapture by evangelicals.

When I refer to “The Rapture of the Bride”, I am referring to the one Pre-Tribulational event that will include the “catching up” of “those that will be alive and remain” at the time of its occurrence. This event will include all believers who have remained in fellowship with the Father, through the Spirit, by remaining and walking (living their life in) that presence. All other believers will enter the Great Tribulation Period where they become the tribulation saints. Those saints will give their lives for their faith and be resurrected between the fifth and sixth seal during the Great Tribulation. Although, obviously they can be referred to as being “caught up” to heaven, as you point out of the two witnesses, there will be no one “caught up” alive. All must be resurrected from the dead. This is a Mid-Trib resurrection, that some have mistaken for a “Rapture”, the term I use to describe only the Pre-Tribulational event that will include the one time “alive and remain” gathering of the Bride of Christ that will conclude the Church age.

It appears to me that you are matching terms in the scripture and equating them, where as I study the context of the passages. “In that night”, “the day”, “midnight”, “the morning” etc, do not mean in their defining the same from passage to passage. The context defines the meaning of use for a word, unless a word has only one meaning, thereby the word defines the use.

When I refer to “midnight” I am not equating that with “mid-trib”. In this case it refers to literally a portion of time contained in the night, the period of time before the dawn of day (the day of the Lord). Again, in this case the day (or beginning of) the Great Tribulation.
RevJW

 

In the terminology, where in scripture is Tribulation equated to Wrath? There are some indications that the sinner will have tribulation in this world but all references to punishment of the unbeliever is that of Wrath. Now the believer does have tribulation but not wrath. We are saved from it. Tribulation of the Saints is not of the sinners. Therefore tribulation is of the saints by unbelievers and Wrath is reserved unto the sinner by God.

Only one resurrection in scripture pertaining to the Church. It is not spread out and segregated unto people and times. It is one event. When it happens then comes wrath.

Clear unequivocal scripture that says so please.

Not mid-trib but pre-wrath.

IF any of you can show me in scripture that Tribulation is Wrath and a scripture that says we will not go through the Great Tribulation in those words, you will have won the argument for me. However scripture states that we will have tribulation, that we are saved from wrath and that;

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now that is clear and concise. :godisgood: And needs no other word from me.

 

Basically you are saying that each person that dies will be resurrected in soul to heaven (Re 6:9, 7:9) and join one early group or one later group, correct?

This is an interesting formulation of it. What exactly does it require of us?

Using the word "believers" rather loosely, aren't you? Perhaps we could agree that they know Christ but He doesn't know them (Mt 25:12)? IOW, they are left behind from the church?

agreed.

I agree the context rules -- so long as context includes as well other scriptures that might contradict the meaning we draw from context and interpretation.

Right. In fact, there are two sign events that I can think of that make the trib the night. 1) the sign miracle of John 6:17-21 where Jesus came to them in mid sea and "immediately they were at the shore to me speaks of Jesus revealing Himself to Israel just before the end of the trib. 2) The 3 times Peter denied Jesus during the night, the morning of which, when he heard the cock crow, he mourned as will those on the earth at Christ's return.

BTW, studying my "signs" and my previous post, had you considered that there were 2 witnesses who tell us about "rapture event" -- John and Paul? Did you have any qualms about the events I mentioned seeming to place the rapture at midtrib? And do you not see that living believers at the end of the MK must "escape" as we will pretrib so that a) Christ may destroy the enemy and cast Satan into hell and so that God may renovate the earth?

skypair

 

Read 2Thes 1:6-7 -- "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us,...[/quote] This speaks quite precisely to the Thessalonians resting with Paul in heaven while their persecutors experience the tribulation on earth.

I've been through this "drill" before -- the "hoops" that prewrath wants us to "jump through" to prove our case. Basically, you are going to renounce 2Thes 1:6-7 --- you're going to say that the Rev 3:10 "hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." is not the entire trib even though the "hour" equates to the time that the 10 kings rule with AC (Rev 17:12) which is 7 years and one hour is the time of Jesus judgment of the earth (Rev 14:7) and the half hour of silence after the 6th seal (Rev 8:1) delineates the passage of 3 1/2 years (half the trib) until the 7th seal is executed (Rev 16:21) --- you're going to "push" the 6th seal all the way to the 5th month of the GT when it belongs late in the first 3 1/2 years -- you're gonna tell us that John wasn't really "raptured" in Rev 4:1 before even the first seal is opened -- blah, blah, blah. It's all horse-hockey. :saint:

 

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

The members of the church of Thyatira were true believers (and representative of the Church as a whole throughout the the Church Age, as well as a picture and example of the modern Church of today at the end of the age) as dictated by Jesus as having in their possession works (twice, beginning and end), charity (love) service, (to God), faith (through belief), and patience (in the coming promise, the return of their Bridegroom) but had fallen prey to false doctrine.

He calls them servants that were allowing heresies to be taught and accepted within their midst. They were being seduced by these teachings. By Jesus' on declaration, this constitutes the sin of adultery commited against the church's Bridegroom, Jesus himself. All believers are engaged to Christ during the Church Age, 2nd Corithians 11:1-3.

Those that continue in the sin of adultery (them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation) will be cast into Great Tribulation, just as you believe. However, Those that repent of the sin of adultery (except they repent of their deeds) will not be cast into Great Tribulation and it is as simple as that.

2nd Thessalonians 2 : 1-3 & 4-9 must somehow agree with this passage. I explained so in an earlier post. "The gathering" (caught up event of 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17) is not the same event as the "day of Christ" (Coming of the Messiah in power and Great Glory). They thought they had missed the gathering and the day of Christ was at hand. Paul explains that was not the case. The day of Christ (the traditional 2nd Coming, Rev. 1:7) will not come until after the reavealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If you ask the scripture, “what day shall not come”, the scripture answers, “the day of Christ”, but does not define that day. The teachings of that day have to be cross referenced. The Rapture of the Bride does not take place on the “day of Christ” which is the day of the return of the Messiah or the traditional second coming at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation. I totally agree with your passage.

That day shall not come “except” (a term that is critical in Rev 2:22) there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.
Verse one is the passage most leave out. Paul is writing a second letter to the Thessalonians due to the fact someone has come into their midst and was teaching falsely they had missed “the gathering”.

If they had, that would place them inside The Great Tribulation and waiting now on the day of Christ. Paul is confirming for them that they had not. Also, all the comforting terms Paul uses mirror,

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Referring to the gathering).

I know this is old news to Post, Pre-Wrath and Mid-Tribbers, but If no one escapes (as described by Jesus Luke 21:36), I see no comfort in that news.

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The foundation of the Pre-Tribulation teachings are clearly defined by the descriptions given by the scripture.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is most definitely the Glorious Appearing or the “Traditional Second Coming” that occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation period. The truth is, the phrase “second coming” does not appear anywhere in the King James Version of the scripture that I have been able to find. I will stand corrected if any one can refer me to such a passage. I am sure it was the invention of a well meaning theologian somewhere in church history and derived from the obvious teachings regarding the return of Jesus Christ. But the term in and of itself does not appear in the text of the scripture. That is not to say there will be no second coming. There most certainly will be. But we must first find it in scripture under another term. This we will do from the passage Hebrews 9:28. The only instance in the entirety of the scripture (that I am aware of) when and where a numerical value is placed within the teaching of a reference to the return of our Lord.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is the only verse in the scripture that directly identifies itself as referring to the second time the Lord Jesus will appear. Not the Rapture, (caught up or “snatched” before the Great Tribulation Period) not the traditional Second Coming (at the end of the Great Tribulation Period) but the next time or “second time” Jesus will make an appearance into this physical world.
The appearance of Jesus that is most commonly referred to, has him coming with/or/in the clouds of heaven, in/or/with great power and great glory (Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:24-26 and Luke 21:25-27).

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21:25-27
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

These passages paired together in context suggest they speak of the same coming as it is also recorded in Revelation 1:7.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This appearance, that is so obviously the Glorious Appearing (every eye shall see him) undoubtedly takes place at the end of The Great Tribulation Period (after the tribulation of those days). But, these narratives do not record the numerical value identifying any of them as the second coming, nor do they agree with the description of Hebrews 9:28 that does (unto them that look for him shall he appear “the second time”).

The writer of Hebrews records clearly that he will appear to those who are looking for him and defines that appearance as the second time. These two criteria are then associated with the return of Jesus Christ in our future, due to the fact it has not yet occurred. Nowhere else in scripture are we given these two pieces of information attached to a single passage that is referring to an appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since the passage of Hebrews is so dissimilar than the text of Matthew, Mark and Luke, the differences in their descriptions suggest there will be two separate events, both of which involve an appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Rapture, (the second time) appearing only to the select few who are looking for his return which will initiate the Great Tribulation Period. Then the traditional Second Coming, when the entire population of the world will see and witness his Triumphant Glorious Appearing which will end The Great Tribulation Period.

But, since this “theory” is derived from the assumption that the Rapture is in fact a biblical teaching from a predetermined Pre-Tribulational perspective, we need scriptural corroboration in order to accept it as truth. Is there a passage in the scripture that would help us confirm this “interpretation” of two separate comings of the Lord ? I believe there is, and as it happens, Jesus himself is again the speaker.

Luke 17:20-22
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

He then turns to his disciples, with the subject of the coming of the Kingdom of God still the topic, and makes reference to the days of the Son of man, making the two subjects synonymous. But when he does so, he mentions the days in the plural, and then a time that will come when the disciples will desire to see one of them. “One of the days of the Son of man” is a direct indication of more than one, confirmed by the rest of the scripture in its descriptions as two, beginning and ending the time known as The Great Tribulation Period.

 

FYI, I have seen many scholars say that "day of Christ" is "day of the Lord" in this passage.

quote]he Rapture of the Bride does not take place on the “day of Christ” which is the day of the return of the Messiah or the traditional second coming at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation.[/quote] I'm not sure I agree with this. Didn't Paul say he would receive a crown in "that day" of Christ, 2Tim 4:8? And that God would continue His work in the Philippians until the "day of Christ," Phil 1:6 "without offense till the day of Christ," 1:10? "that I may rejoice in the day of Christ," 2:16? I think all these suggest that the "day of Christ" is the Bema in heaven following the rapture. My understanding is that while the "day of Christ" happens in heaven, the "day of the Lord" begins on earth.

Thanks for reminding me about Luke 21:36. :thumbs:

skypair

 

My whole thought addresses that verse.

And your Philadelphian spirit is really appreciated. Did you say that this is the Church you identified with?

Ok, So what does Greek do for me? It tells me that I am an idiot and you a scholarly superior. I can only trust what the Word says in English. Now please without further belittlement lets have a brotherly discussion.

 

Ha-ha! I don't know Greek any more than you! I was just pointing out something I came across in my studies. Sorry if I sounded stilted. :type:

You addressed the wrath but not the tribulation per 2Thes 1:6-7. Do you see that while the tribulation is going on in the earth, the Thessalonians will be "resting" in heaven with Paul?

skypair

 

The Great tribulation; This isn't just a few little trials we would have to go through. This is temptation with out the comforter or, the Holy Spirit. This is temptation like has never been before. Since men today aren't able to go even one day with out sinning even though the Spirit always makes a way of escape. What on earth makes anyone think they could endure with out the Spirit. Man has never been able to clean his own life up and keep it that way. Left to tribulation with out the restrainer we will all fail.
Paul wrote;
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The anti Christ can't be revealed until the Spirit is taken out of the way.

2Th 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
sorry for the long quote but it something you have over looked.
They call the trib the Great tribulation because it is greater than any we've had before.

scripture please?

scripture please?

Scripture does not say we will suffer great tribulation with out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He who holds back sin who allows it and restrains it is with in the Christian and He will be removed. That means that Christians who have the indwelling of the Spirit will also be removed because we are promised Him. We rely on Him and I doubt anyone would be able to maintain a Christian walk with out Him

The coming of Christ and the rapture are two separate events because when Christ comes He brings us with him.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The rapture is the gathering of all the saints and Christ feet never touch the mountain top. He sends His angles to gather us.

Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It would seem rather ridiculous to meet Him in the air only to return to earth. Christ only has one second coming there can be no third. and there is absolutely nothing confirming a coming just before wrath. The coming of Christ happens at or near the end of the trib.
MB

 

Most prewrathers don't believe this truth. But the reason is simple --- believers churches would never "fall in with" AC's church per Rev 2:22. In fact, since the days of Martin Luther at least, we have EXPOSED him for the demon he, that church leader, is!!! Yet this is the whole foundation of AC's success (per Rev 17:16)!! Take just about any attribute that Daniel offers and he is handsome, wise, eloquent, speaks dark sentences (parables), etc. because he speaks as if for God as His "Christ" (of "Vicar" thereof, if you get my drift).

skypair

 

Thyatira

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God,

(There can be no question of the speaker)

who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

(This constitutes the sin of adultery against the Son Of God if the violator is a believer.)

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

(She repented not of her fornication. The lost of the world are in a constant state of fornication against their Creator. Hence, she has rejected salvation.)

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

A person can only commit adultery against their spouse, or in this case, the individual they are engaged to be married to.

2nd Corinthians 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The church of Thyatira (as all churches do) contains members who have not yet accepted salvation whether they know it or not. It is possible for an individual to grow up in an assembly with the impression they are saved. But, the individuals being addressed concerning the Great Tribulation are espoused to God's Son. He calls them servants besides the sin of adultery being undeniably the sin they are guilty of.

This is not the church of the anti-christ. This is a genuine Church of God which is in violation of its marriage vows just prior to the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

 

I see several places and models in the Bible that point to a Post-Tribulation gathering to Jesus.Jesus tells us in what order people are harvested from the earth.[ Matthew 13:30 ]

Paul tells us that the "son of perdition" must be revealed before we are gathered back to Christ. [ 2 Thess 2:1-5 ]
This excludes a Pre-Tribulation gathering to Christ

I do see where Daniel chapter 9 could be interpreted as a Mid-Tribulation gathering to Jesus.

The word "rapture" in not even in the Bible.

 

The "church" is NOT seperate from Israel.
The Lord God did not plant a NEW family tree called the church but grafted us Gentiles into the ORIGINAL family tree. [ Romans 11:17 ]

We are ALL one in Christ Jesus [ Jew or Gentile ] Galatians 3:28

 

Israel was not the church (and will not be the church) and the church is not individual salvation either (corporate group/assembly). So I can't see how your Rom 11:17 model fits. All one in Christ simply means that every christian shall be identified as being in Christ, rather than Greek, Roman, Jew Gentile....etc

A Jew is not in Christ unless they get saved, then they are "Messianic Jews", Jews whom recognise Jesus as their Messiah.

Darren

 

We, the Gentiles[wild by nature] , were grafted into the original family tree of Israel [the natural cultivated tree] by Christ Jesus. Romans 11:13-25

The church is anyone who is a part of the body of Christ Jesus.

 

We are grafted (wild branches) into Christ the Olive Tree not Israel (natural branches).

Darren

 

Jesus is Israel because he came through the tribe of Judah,house of David, when he left heaven. Judah is one of the 12 tribes of Israel so Jesus cannot be seperated from Israel.

His earthly lineage is directly in line with Jacob [also called Israel].
Luke 3:23-38

Paul makes it CLEAR in Romans 11:26 that he is talking about all of Israel, not just Jesus who is the King. [Jesus does not need salvation. He is the Redeemer and Savior].

Romans 11:17 GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM
The "them" is Israel.

Romans 11:24 CULTIVATED OLIVE TREE
Jesus is God and has never needed any cultivating.

The reason it is so important understanding this truth is that it will affect how you view end time events including the "so called rapture".