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doctrines of grace ?
- Thread starter MB
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Total Depravity
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died salvivicly only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
(See https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm)
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died salvivicly only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
(See https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm)
The truth about the scriptures posted that are suppose to prove total depravity. Mark 7:21-23.
Total Depravity
ar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
These prove that evil thoughts come out of the heart of man but fail to prove the man is totally depraved.
Even Christians have evil thoughts. If they didn't they would not sin. Are Christians also totaly depraved?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
There is nothing here that's total.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Servants of sin but there is nothing about it being total.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
This describes us all not just those who are unsaved. We live by the righteousness of Christ and His grace. Nope this doesn't say totally depraved.In fact this is a Quote made by Paul from the Psalms. This is how it starts.
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
This is not David speaking nor is it God but just a fool's rantings. Told by David. Are we suppose to believe there is no God as well?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This verse is Paul preaching to babes in Christ who were still thinking in natural terms and along with the those not saved were being fed milk. The milk of the word the things they could understand. No one has perfect understanding still to this day saved or not because no one has grown to this level. Only our Lord is on this level.Read the rest of 1st Cor. 2.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
This verse is about Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. No Total depravity here.
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Well so far you have proved me right there is no total depravity in God's word.
None of your scriptures are complete. My point is anyone can take verses from the Bible and add there own comments to make it say what ever they want it to. I read the wjole story because I want to be clear on what scripture is saying/
MB
MB
Total Depravity
ar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
These prove that evil thoughts come out of the heart of man but fail to prove the man is totally depraved.
Even Christians have evil thoughts. If they didn't they would not sin. Are Christians also totaly depraved?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
There is nothing here that's total.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Servants of sin but there is nothing about it being total.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
This describes us all not just those who are unsaved. We live by the righteousness of Christ and His grace. Nope this doesn't say totally depraved.In fact this is a Quote made by Paul from the Psalms. This is how it starts.
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
This is not David speaking nor is it God but just a fool's rantings. Told by David. Are we suppose to believe there is no God as well?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This verse is Paul preaching to babes in Christ who were still thinking in natural terms and along with the those not saved were being fed milk. The milk of the word the things they could understand. No one has perfect understanding still to this day saved or not because no one has grown to this level. Only our Lord is on this level.Read the rest of 1st Cor. 2.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
This verse is about Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. No Total depravity here.
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Well so far you have proved me right there is no total depravity in God's word.
None of your scriptures are complete. My point is anyone can take verses from the Bible and add there own comments to make it say what ever they want it to. I read the wjole story because I want to be clear on what scripture is saying/
MB
MB
unconditional election.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Chosen yes. Not unconditionally elected. God also Predestined the Jews and they still rejected Him. An election is collectively choosing.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This is God electing the Jews. this has nothing to do with Gentiles.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
This shows that the election of the Jews was conditional. In fact God said He hated Esau. Now thats conditional. Not to mention no Gentiles were mentioned.
MB
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Chosen yes. Not unconditionally elected. God also Predestined the Jews and they still rejected Him. An election is collectively choosing.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This is God electing the Jews. this has nothing to do with Gentiles.Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
This shows that the election of the Jews was conditional. In fact God said He hated Esau. Now thats conditional. Not to mention no Gentiles were mentioned.
MB
Attachments
Of course. All of mankind is fallen. Even you.
What part of "above all things" didn't you understand? And you know, don't you, that Total Depravity does not mean "as bad as it is possible to be?" Right? It means that the totality of man, his body, his soul, and his spirit has been damaged by the fall. You know that, right?
What part of "free from righteousness" didn't you understand? And you know, don't you, that Total Depravity does not mean "as bad as it is possible to be?" Right? It means that the totality of man, his body, his soul, and his spirit has been damaged by the fall. You know that, right?
Yes, we are all fallen creatures. Even you.
That would depend if you are a fool, for it is the fool who has said there is no God.
So "natural man" doesn't mean what it means everywhere else in the bible? Here it is secret code for "babes being fed milk?" And, again, you know, don't you, that Total Depravity does not mean "as bad as it is possible to be?" Right? It means that the totality of man, his body, his soul, and his spirit has been damaged by the fall. You know that, right?
How have I proved you are right for thinking man is not fallen and/or the fall did not affect the body, soul, and spirit?
Your answer is 1st Cor chapter 2. Read the whole thing it doesn't say what you are trying to say it saysCan you answer any of my questions or comments? Or do you just make vague, unsupported and slightly childish allegation:
If you can aswer, you will. If you can't, you won't.
The same with all the passages you have posted.You quote the verse and then you add your comments. Your comments do not match what the verse is saying in context. Calvinism is nothing more than what men have made it. Same problem with the RCC they do the same thing. Probably is where Calvinist got the idea from. Not one of the passages has anything to do with what you claim.
MB
Okay. So, it is now established that you know nothing about the topic and cannot answer even the fairly simple questions I posted.
It sounds to me as if we are done. I can carry my side of the discussion, but as you cannot carry yours, we're done.
Anybody want to carry on an intelligent discussion?
I apologize for going back to the start, but I missed this thread (I had to do a little thing called work
).I'm not sure of your objection here. In which area of our lives is God obsolete (where do we "measure up")? Since we are talking strictly about salvation (the five points), what exactly are you saying exists within man that merits salvation? What part of us is untouched by sin?
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I apologize for going back to the start, but I missed this thread (I had to do a little thing called work
I'm not sure of your objection here. In which area of our lives is God obsolete
This is your mistake. I never said God was obsolete. I never even hinted at it. This is your twisted idea.
[QUOTE="JonC, post: 2277721, member: 12639"
(where do we "measure up")? Since we are talking strictly about salvation (the five points), what exactly are you saying exists within man that merits salvation?[/QUOTE]
Nothing;
m
Man simply doesn't measure up. Salvation is an offer, Christ invites us. We do not have to be anything special. Salvation is a free gift to the world we just have to receive it. All this stuff that election insures our Salvation is bunk. Lots of people never realize their destinies.
These passages are an invitation for all to come to Him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
MB
Actually this shows you are a very rude man who twist the conversations of others and I'm tired of your insults. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the back side.
MB
Sorry if my wording threw you off. I will retry.
Dealing with only total depravity (I'm not a quick thinker, so let's take it one at a time), the doctrine does not refer to levels of depravity but it speaks of sin as affecting the "total man". We do not measure up to God's standard in every part of our lives and we need God's grace in all of our being.
What I am asking you, since you deny that doctrine, is what part of man do you believe was not affected by sin (what part of us remains sufficient and does not need to be made new)? Surely if you deny that sin has affected us in all of our being you can point to at least one area not in need of redemption (granted, God redeems the whole).
The idea that "election insures our Salvation" is neither Calvinism nor is it biblical. Our salvation is secured by purchase. But again....we are not there yet...we're still on the first point.
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Maybe this will be more clear to my question:
Total Depravity: Our sinful corruption is so deep and so strong as to make us slaves of sin and morally unable to overcome our own rebellion and blindness. This inability to save ourselves from ourselves is total. We are utterly dependent on God’s grace to overcome our rebellion, give us eyes to see, and effectively draw us to the Savior. (John Piper)
What part of this do you reject?
1. We are slaves to sin
2. We are unable to overcome our own rebellion
3. We are completely unable to save ourselves
4. We are completely dependent on God's grace to overcome sin
These 4 things are true but total depravity as supposedly supported by the scriptures that Cassidy posted are false. None of those scriptures say what he insist they are saying. None of the things you've listed prove man is totally depraved.I agree man is an evil creature just not completely evil. Men who are not saved have done good things as well. Take Cornelius for instance. He feared God but he didn't know Jesus Christ The Bible says;
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
This man;s good came up before God in Heaven and as yet he was not saved.
After Peter was called to Cornelious house Peter said to them in the house.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Calvinist can call me what ever they like I don't care I will stand up for the truth. The righteousness of Cornelious was before he was saved.
So much for total depravity. It something that isn't true.
MB
Remember you are done with me so stop insulting me.
MB
I am not sure what you mean here.
On one hand you seem to agree with the doctrine of total depravity (we are slaves to sin, unable to overcome our own rebellion, completely unable to save ourselves and completely dependent on God's grace to overcome sin) as defined by Piper (a Calvinist theologian). Yet disagree that the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is true.
Calvinists do not believe that men are as evil as they can be, but in relation to God men are completely unrighteous. And this unrighteousness extents to every part of man.
Your example of Cornelious is not sufficient to disprove the doctrine unless you can show by Scripture that God was not working in his life (that the Holy Spirit did not convict Cornelious of sin, or lead him to a fear or reverence for God). You need to remember that Cornelious was not the only devout man who feared God before he was saved. Paul was another. And, assuming that he was ultimately saved, so was Nicodemus.
There was a point in my life, before I was saved, where I think I also feared God and sought to live righteously. Looking back, I believe that this was the work of the Holy Spirit (I know you probably disagree, as such a reliance on God would affirm the doctrine you are seeking to denounce).
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