Featured doctrines of grace ?

Total Depravity

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:

Jesus died salvivicly only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:

You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

(See https://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm)

 

Of course. All of mankind is fallen. Even you.

What part of "above all things" didn't you understand? And you know, don't you, that Total Depravity does not mean "as bad as it is possible to be?" Right? It means that the totality of man, his body, his soul, and his spirit has been damaged by the fall. You know that, right?

What part of "free from righteousness" didn't you understand? And you know, don't you, that Total Depravity does not mean "as bad as it is possible to be?" Right? It means that the totality of man, his body, his soul, and his spirit has been damaged by the fall. You know that, right?

Yes, we are all fallen creatures. Even you.

That would depend if you are a fool, for it is the fool who has said there is no God.

So "natural man" doesn't mean what it means everywhere else in the bible? Here it is secret code for "babes being fed milk?" And, again, you know, don't you, that Total Depravity does not mean "as bad as it is possible to be?" Right? It means that the totality of man, his body, his soul, and his spirit has been damaged by the fall. You know that, right?

How have I proved you are right for thinking man is not fallen and/or the fall did not affect the body, soul, and spirit?

 

Can you answer any of my questions or comments? Or do you just make vague, unsupported and slightly childish allegation:

If you can aswer, you will. If you can't, you won't.

 

Okay. So, it is now established that you know nothing about the topic and cannot answer even the fairly simple questions I posted.

It sounds to me as if we are done. I can carry my side of the discussion, but as you cannot carry yours, we're done.

Anybody want to carry on an intelligent discussion?

 

I apologize for going back to the start, but I missed this thread (I had to do a little thing called work ).

I'm not sure of your objection here. In which area of our lives is God obsolete (where do we "measure up")? Since we are talking strictly about salvation (the five points), what exactly are you saying exists within man that merits salvation? What part of us is untouched by sin?

 

Sorry if my wording threw you off. I will retry.

Dealing with only total depravity (I'm not a quick thinker, so let's take it one at a time), the doctrine does not refer to levels of depravity but it speaks of sin as affecting the "total man". We do not measure up to God's standard in every part of our lives and we need God's grace in all of our being.

What I am asking you, since you deny that doctrine, is what part of man do you believe was not affected by sin (what part of us remains sufficient and does not need to be made new)? Surely if you deny that sin has affected us in all of our being you can point to at least one area not in need of redemption (granted, God redeems the whole).

The idea that "election insures our Salvation" is neither Calvinism nor is it biblical. Our salvation is secured by purchase. But again....we are not there yet...we're still on the first point.

 

Maybe this will be more clear to my question:

Total Depravity: Our sinful corruption is so deep and so strong as to make us slaves of sin and morally unable to overcome our own rebellion and blindness. This inability to save ourselves from ourselves is total. We are utterly dependent on God’s grace to overcome our rebellion, give us eyes to see, and effectively draw us to the Savior. (John Piper)

What part of this do you reject?

1. We are slaves to sin
2. We are unable to overcome our own rebellion
3. We are completely unable to save ourselves
4. We are completely dependent on God's grace to overcome sin

 

So, again, you make a personal attack instead of even trying to honestly contribute to the discussion and answer some very simple questions.

 

I am not sure what you mean here.

On one hand you seem to agree with the doctrine of total depravity (we are slaves to sin, unable to overcome our own rebellion, completely unable to save ourselves and completely dependent on God's grace to overcome sin) as defined by Piper (a Calvinist theologian). Yet disagree that the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is true.

Calvinists do not believe that men are as evil as they can be, but in relation to God men are completely unrighteous. And this unrighteousness extents to every part of man.

Your example of Cornelious is not sufficient to disprove the doctrine unless you can show by Scripture that God was not working in his life (that the Holy Spirit did not convict Cornelious of sin, or lead him to a fear or reverence for God). You need to remember that Cornelious was not the only devout man who feared God before he was saved. Paul was another. And, assuming that he was ultimately saved, so was Nicodemus.

There was a point in my life, before I was saved, where I think I also feared God and sought to live righteously. Looking back, I believe that this was the work of the Holy Spirit (I know you probably disagree, as such a reliance on God would affirm the doctrine you are seeking to denounce).