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Featured Sacrifice of Cain and Able

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Excellent observation [Who Was The Elder Son?]:

    Jealousy/envy/enmity from those that were first towards those that were second:

    Cain/Abel
    4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
    5 but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
    6 And Jehovah said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4

    Ishmael/Isaac
    8 And the child grew, and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.
    9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne unto Abraham, mocking. Gen 21
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal 4

    Essau/Jacob
    41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him. And Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand. Then will I slay my brother Jacob. Gen 27

    Saul the first king/David the second king
    7 And the women sang one to another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands.
    8 And Saul was very wroth, and this saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?
    9 And Saul eyed David from that day and forward. 1 Sam 18

    Concerning the firstborn/second born, it is consistent throughout the scriptures that it's actually the second born that obtains the favor of God, not the firstborn,

    It was not Cain's sacrifice that God had respect for, but it was Abel's; 'Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother....Because his works were evil, and his brother`s righteous.' [1 Jn 3:12]

    Shem was the elder brother of Japheth, but, 'God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...' [Gen 10:21 ASV & 9:27]

    It was Ishmael, the firstborn, that was born after the flesh, and he persecuted Isaac, the second born, that was born after the Spirit. Isaac was the child of promise; Ishmael was cast out. [Gal 4:29]

    It was said of Esau and Jacob, 'The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' [Ro 9:12,13]

    It was not Leah his first wife that Jacob loved, but it was Rachel his second wife. [Gen 29:30,31]

    It was Ephraim the younger that Jacob blessed over his older brother Mannassah and that in spite of Joseph's objections. [Gen 48:13-20]

    It was not the first generation of the exodus that entered into the rest of the promised land, it was the second generation; 'But your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.' [Nu 14:31]

    It was not Saul the first king of Israel that would do all of God's will, but it was the second king David that was a man after His heart; '...Saul the son of Kish...when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.' [Acts 13:21,22]

    It was not the first covenant of the law ( I desire mercy, and not sacrifice) that God had pleasure in, but it was the second covenant of grace; '....a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.' [Heb 8:6,7]

    Consider 'the first man Adam' vs. 'the last Adam, ' ... that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.' 1 Cor 15:45-47]
     
    #21 kyredneck, Jan 3, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I would say the following is the already established, "sacrificial system".

    But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20

    I would say it was also the basis by which Abel was imputed with righteousness.

    The obedient shed blood of the sinless Christ.

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19

    (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) Rom 9:11
     
    #22 percho, Jan 3, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Have you considered that God furnished the skins of animals for the clothing for Adam and Eve in connection with confronting them with their sin and the good news of a coming redeemer? Usually, an animal must lose their life if they lose their skin.

    Could it be that God provided the example of a right sacrifice in direct connection with the gospel in Genesis 3:15?

    How could Cain and Able bring their sacrifices "TO the Lord" and how could Cain "go out from the presence" of an ominiscient God? Does not that suggest that God had an appointed place to meet and receive the worship of his people at an early date?

    Genesis 4:3 reads literally "at the end of days." At the end of what days? The only days that had an end previous to this point was six days ending before the Sabbath day.

    Could it be that the established way of worship at an early date was on the Lord's Day, at the Lord's House (appointed place of assembling) and around the Lord's sacrifice? Thus the Lord's day, the Lord's House and the Lord's symbolic gospel sacrifice?
     
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  4. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Could be. But to make definite claims that "this is the reason" go beyond even the penumbra of the text. The quality of the sacrifice, it seems to me, is a secondary part of the story and to try to read into it a sacrificial system goes too far. Illustrative, perhaps, but not dogmatic.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I don't believe I used those words you put in quotation marks ("this is the reason"). Perhaps you were merely surmising what would have to be an unstated conclusion due to the inference of my "could it be" questions?

    The other alternative, if it were not a matter of divine revelation prior to Genesis 4 (and no other death of animals occurs in the record other than in Genesis 3 in direct connection with the Gospel - Gen. 3:15,22) is that Cain and Abel merely dreamed up what clearly infers to be an appointed place ("bring to.....go out from the presence of") at an appointed time ("end of days") sacrifices that God clearly approves of one and disapproves of the other?

    Jesus says that Abel was a "prophet" and the writer of Hebrews says in direct connection with his sacrifice that he still speaketh (Heb. 11:4). The sacrifice did not procure his righteousness but only gave an outward witness that he was already righteous. Hum? Paul says "there is none righteous, no not one" and Jesus said before the cross "there is none righteous but one and that is God." If the sacrifice did not procure his righteousness but gave "witness" of it, then how did that sacrifice give such a witness, if it was not by intent to manifest his faith in the gospel preached in Genesis 3:15 or is there some other way to be righteous before God outside of Christ?

    If it is too much to infer these things, then what is your alternative explanation? What I have said not only fits all the Biblical data in the immediate context but fits the overall context of Scripture unless you can show some other gospel, some other way to obtain righteousness, some other origin of the sacrificial system in Genesis?
     
  6. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Genesis 8:20
    And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

    Noah seemed to know about sacrifices and offerings, and apparently it Pleased the Lord (Genesis 8:21). I don't think "Guessing how to please the Lord" has ever been a reality in scripture, that's not Worship. The Lord REVEALING to us what pleases Him (Worship God in Spirit and in TRUTH) has always been the Scriptural Basis of our Worship.

    Just some thoughts :)
     
    #26 JonShaff, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Does God reveal to everyone what pleases him?

    Did God reveal to Cain what pleases him?

    Does one have to be of One in order for One to be pleased?

    and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, Heb 11:6

    Was one of Faith and the other of something else?
     
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    No, you didn't. I already admitted that what you said could be. I simply think anyone — not necessarily you — has to be careful in asserting that there is only one explanation for the passage.

    I do not offer an alternative explanation. Any of the ones mentioned may be accurate; none may be. I do not intend to treat Genesis as a jigsaw puzzle and make its pieces fit in a way that satisfies me.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I am not interested in satisfying either you or me. However, there are facts being stated that demand necessary inferences. For example, it is a fact of the text that they brought sacrifices "to the Lord" and that "Cain went out of from the presence of the Lord." The overall Biblical context demands that God is a "spirit" and he is omnipresent (Psa. 139; etc.). Hence, the language of our text necessarily infers there was some VISIBLE and LOCALIZED place that they could bring tangible sacrifices "TO the Lord" and from whence they "went out from the presence of the Lord."

    Second, it is a clear fact of the text and overall biblical context that God favoured the sacrifice of Abel over the sacrifice of Cain. It is a clear fact of the context of the Book of Genesis, BEFORE MOSES that the kind of sacrifice offered by Abel is the kind continued to be offered throughout out the book of Genesis - animal sacrifice. It is a fact that John says that Christ as a "lamb" was slain "from foundation of the world.

    The immediate and overall context demand the necesssary inference that Cain and Abel knew what pleased God or else cain could not have been held accountable by God as he clearly is. Hence, either they knew by example from their parents or by divine revelation or by both.

    It is a fact of overall context that Abel is a "prophet" that "still speaketh" by his sacrifice (Heb.11:4) and Peter says "to him give ALL THE PROPHETS witness that whosoever believeth upon his name shall receive remission of sins." (Acts 10:43). That is not mere inference but a clearly stated fact.

    Furthermore, the bible is a jig saw puzzle to men, whose responsibility is to see how all the pieces fit together. We are told to compare spiritual with spiritual and to study diligently to rightly divide the word of truth and rightly dividing does demand comparing words, phrases, texts with immediate and overall context. It does requires recogonizing necessary inferences, it does require seeking how all scriptures fit together compatibly.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Wasn't it due to Able giving a Sacrifice willingly, the very best, ad that it was one of blood being shed?
     
  11. beameup

    beameup Member

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    Job offered animal sacrifices for sin. Job is considered to be the oldest book in the Bible.
    And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. Job 1:5
    Adam and Eve experienced a physical presence of the LORD in the Garden:
    And they heard the voice [sound] of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. - Genesis 3:8
     
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