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Featured Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 10, 2017.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't see the contradiction.

    I believe that God calls all men to salvation. I believe that Christ died so that all may be saved. I believe that all men are offered a legitimate opportunity for salvation, and they would be saved if only they would, to quote Scripture, "repent and believe". And I believe no one responds to this call.

    And I believe that out of these sinners, who once rejected him and were enemies with him, God draws a people to himself in an effectual way. God saves some men, but not all men.

    I believe God saves men to as a demonstration of his mercy. I am not really concerned about why God doesn't save all, as that is not my business. But reading Paul I suspect God will be glorified there as well.
     
    #221 JonC, Jan 14, 2017
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "You are very unwise to blame God for being God and ruling His universe."

    You are unwise for presuming God is an idiot and exercises a license to be evil.

    Might makes right. Terrorist God. He holds the gun so as a coward does we do all he says.



    Learn to read:

    ""And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil""


    The condemnation IS believing that LIGHT came into the world and men love darkness rather then light because what they DID was evil.


    In other words you see someone do evil and you say to yourself "well of course because people love evil". Just like you think God is privileged to do some "Legal evil".

    You believe people love darkness rather then light. At its core that's the most evil self condemning thought.

    That's why Jesus identifies it----> THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION.

    He tells you he never condemns anyone, but a person who doesn't believe God saves that is in his name, HE CONDEMNS HIMSELF.

    What is that condemnation?

    THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION:

    You WOULD believe Men love darkness rather then light because of how you LOWLY look on God already and count him worthless.

    Your own faith of God can't believe God to be a good enough thing


    In comparison I don't believe anyone would pass up God.

    Your sin is in your expectations A God that fails and one who is not worth it.

    You expect God to fail only save half what he wants, You expect him to do evil licenced and labeled good, And you expect folks not to like him AFTERALL you can't find anything good about him yourself.
     
    #222 utilyan, Jan 15, 2017
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    " I am not really concerned about why God doesn't save all, as that is not my business."

    Romans 9

    2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

    Paul's attitude is a lot different from yours. Willing to be damned and separated from Jesus to save others.


    Romans 10

    1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

    Paul desires for them to be saved. Explains after why they are not, being unbelievers.

    Then explains how can they can't believe unless someone preaches to them.

    14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

    If I were Calvinist, my answer to Paul is they will believe when God wills them to and your preaching does nothing.

    Paul clearly not a Calvinist.
     
    #223 utilyan, Jan 15, 2017
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, not at all.

    Your interpretation of my words only shows your error as it is the same when you deal with the words of Calvin, the doctrine of Calvinists, and the Word of God. You simply don't care what is really written, only what you dictate should have been said. So you misrepresent me, them, and Scripture, without concern or care. At least you're consistent.

    I never once said I did not care about the lost. I said that God's reasons for not saving all men are not my business. I was referring to Paul's reply when he addressed the question in Romans 9:20. I should have known the reference would prove both foreign to your knowledge and beyond your acceptance.

    I simply do not believe that God is accountable to me. I find it amazing that you believe otherwise, that you believe God's decision not to save all men falls within your scope of responsibility. Not only is it a denial of Scripture, but it just seems arrogant. Is salvation the only place you believe God humbles himself before men or are there others?
     
    #224 JonC, Jan 15, 2017
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  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You just make this stuff up as you go along. The word 'believing' is nowhere in the text. Like almost all the stuff you write, it is a figment of your imagination.
    None of the rest is worth dignifying with a reply. You have no idea at all. If you just read John 3:16-21, you might understand.
     
    #225 Martin Marprelate, Jan 15, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Given the nature of several posts across several threads by a few members, it certainly seems Calvinism a difficult topic to argue against honestly. That goes to demonstrate the strength of the the soteriology in light of Scripture itself. Both Agent47 and Utilyan are unable to find fault with Calvinism so they invent ideas and twist stated views to create a "calvinism" they can argue against. And it is a silly, dishonest undertaking that such anti-calvinistic brethern seem unable to legitimately engage the doctrines but insted invent strawman and struggle so earnestly in opposition to beliefs no one believes.

    There are, of course, legitimate discussions to be had not only from those who reject Calvinism but also from within the view. But a prerequsite to honest discussion is the ability to handle opposing doctrine with integrity. I do not see that with a few opposing Calvinism here.

    And it is sad because their carelessness reflects a downgrade of how the doctrine of God rests on his people. These docrines just become another something to choose, either by traditiuon or by choice....like supporting a sports team. Agent47 and Utilyan have picked a team and now they simply oppose anything not theirs, by any means. They understand God on their terms, yet choose to slander him when it suits their camp ideologies. It is, ultimately, not God but their view that holds sway over them, for to even consider what the other is saying seems to shake their resolve. So they don't. They slander, oppose, mislead and misrepresent out of fear their understanding cannot stand up to a genuine discussion of the issue. On this topic, they have proved themselves obsolete.
     
    #226 JonC, Jan 15, 2017
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  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I've been waiting weeks for you to tell me where the bible says it is final rule of authority or where do you get your canon of scripture, If you want to talk about figments of imagination.

    I don't need the word "believing". It says "and this is the condemnation"

    It doesn't say "this is the way it is".
     
    #227 utilyan, Jan 16, 2017
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well I said I hope I am misrepresenting you, I am learning. I will not insist you believe one thing unless you whole heartedly agree.

    Please review my post, where Did I say you did not care about the lost?

    Its a easy thing to clear up:

    Are you willing to be damned and separated from Christ to saved all reprobates?



    "I simply do not believe that God is accountable to me. I find it amazing that you believe otherwise, that you believe God's decision not to save all men falls within your scope of responsibility. Not only is it a denial of Scripture, but it just seems arrogant. Is salvation the only place you believe God humbles himself before men or are there others?"

    First show me where God has judged not to save all men. I think your judgment is attempting to go over God's head. Unless you want to challenge judgment day already happened.

    God can steal from who he wants, that doesn't automatically mean he has stolen or will steal anything at all.



    "save all men falls within your scope of responsibility."

    Even the very least of brethren is my responsibility. My example to follow is Jesus Christ.


    " Is salvation the only place you believe God humbles himself before men or are there others?"

    My God is humble with everything he does.



    "I simply do not believe that God is accountable to me"

    God commands me to teach everyone to follow the commandments even the least of commandments.

    I could agree with you pretty quickly if you can point to one soul who is not obligated to follow the command of God.

    Then I can shrug and say well its obvious God doesn't want him saved.
     
    #228 utilyan, Jan 16, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    My argument is when presented with an explanation you (and Agent47) are putting it within a different framework or context and arguing against what was never stated.

    As an example, when I said that God's decisions in not saving all was not my business, your response was that Calvinists are not concerned with the lost. When we consider evangelism throughout history, reality proves otherwise. But the issue is your reply had absolutely nothing to do with my post.

    What I am trying to get you to understand is that the only ones who believe Calvinism as you define it are some who oppose Calvinism. It is difficult to dialogue with you because we all reject what you think Calvinism teaches. There are no Calvinists who believe what you present them to believe. I hope at least you understand that part.

    All men are obligated to obey God. This is implied as God is our Creator. This is commanded as God is Lord of all. And this is an obligation as God calls all men to repent and believe. All men are called to salvation and God desires that all believe (otherwise it wouldn't be a sin to reject God). Men go to Hell unsaved, not unloved.

    What is happening on this thread is akin to me discussing vegetables, saying I love tomatoes the most and you asserting that I worship tomatoes because I love them more than God, offering as "proof" my comment I love tomatoes the most. It's a child's game, more suited for the "humor" section than the Cal-Arm section because you are not really discussing Calvinism at all.
     
    #229 JonC, Jan 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    These things have been explained to you over and over again, not just by me but by other brothers as well. But you don't listen; you're only interested in pushing your own unbiblical agenda.
    Obviously not. But your interpretation of the passage does, and it's not there.
    I think you'll find that's exactly what it does say. Outside of the Lord Jesus Christ, condemnation is exactly the way it is. I don't know why I'm bothering because you probably won't read it, and you certainly won't make any effort to understand it, but here is John 3:17-19 in context:

    "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved..........." The world needed saving, otherwise God would not have sent Him QED.
    "........He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.........." So before we even arrive at v.19, we have two groups of people: one is not condemned, and the other is condemned, and the difference between them is faith- faith alone, faith mixed with nothing. The person who refuses to believe on Christ is in a state of condemnation even while he lives. The curse of a broken law hangs over him; he needs a Saviour, a Saviour is gloriously provided, but he has rejected Him. He is reckoned guilty and dead before God, and there is no more than a step between him and hell. How can he be such a fool? "And this is the condemnation....." What condemnation? The condemnation that is being talked about in these very verses! ".......That the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Their condemnation is not that they are not part of the elect; it is not because of anything Calvin says; their condemnation is that they will not humble themselves before the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, and trust in Him for salvation. Why will they not do that? Is it because God has deliberately hardened their hearts? No! It is because their deeds are evil. They have wicked, unbelieving hearts, they want to be their own bosses, and they 'will not have this Man to reign over us.' (Luke 19:14).

    This is all so simple that a child could understand it, and maybe that's your problem (Matthew 18:3-4).
     
    #230 Martin Marprelate, Jan 16, 2017
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This thread has gone on for awhile, but the OP was settled when Calvin was quoted as denying God authored evil.

    Did John Calvin believe or teach that God authors evil? No, as evidenced by his works. Does Calvinism teach that God authors evil? No, as evidenced by the Canons of Dort. Does Calvinism teach that God saves men against their will? No, as evidenced by the Canons of Dort. While interpretation and reasoning may be argued, Calvinism does not teach that God authors sin, that salvation was not legitimately offered to all, or that men cannot freely choose. And since all of this is stated belief, it would take a fool to argue otherwise.
     
    #231 JonC, Jan 16, 2017
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  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    As it would be no surprise to all, at 12 pages and 231 posts, this threads is closed. I'm sorry I didn't catch this thread earlier. However, my machine was in the shop last week and I was visiting my m-i-l over the weekend.
     
    #232 Squire Robertsson, Jan 16, 2017
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