Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

[Yeshua1]

It's a cue for you to drop insults and sideshows,and focus on the subject or ship out, before you go bald after plucking all your hair in angst

One thing I have never understood are forum members who jump into a thread they are uncomfortable with only to end up throwing tantrums.

How often do you need to be reminded of the OP?

Calvin conception of God is of a moral monster. I just proved that

All that yo have shown to us is that you really do not understand what Calvin and others wrote concerning this OP topic, as you misunderstand what the Biblet eaches, and then misunderstand Calvin/Hodge an others, and put your own understandingi nto their words.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's a double negative, you meant "...to save anyone, and he does not even attempt to [do so]"

Certainly he is under no obligation to save anyone. With that I agree. But then you follow with the absurdity that he doesn't even attempt to save anyone. That's just plain crazy. The Bible is against that lunacy as well as Calvin.

Calvinists don't believe in that inconsistency just as Calvin did not hold to it.

God does not damn and then save. That is a crazy charge.

So God gave to us Jesus in order to do wha?

 

[Yeshua1]

Your problem is that you neither know God nor understand Calvin.
Calvin is just this man who wrote a lot of stuff. That you do not understand what he wrote is not any problem to me. As I wrote at the start, there is a pile of stuff about which I disagree with him.

But I know God well enough to know that the Lord Jesus Christ died for me- me personally. He did not die to make it possible for me to save myself; He Himself saved me. I know that you don't care what God says in His word, but He says that when I was dead- not just a bit poorly, but dead- in sin, God made me alive in Christ. I now know God as my Father and Christ as my co-heir and Saviour through the witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:14-17). So I care when you blaspheme Him whom I love.

You too can come to know God, through Christ, for He promises not to turn away any who come to Him. But if you come, you will realise that you have only come because He has loved you with an everlasting love, and opened your heart to receive Him (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Acts 16:14, not that you care).

May the Lord open our brothers eyes to not know if Calvin was true, but hat the word of God and the truth of Jesus is Lord be true!

 

[JonC]

Could you show scripture for this please. Paul said;
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
MB

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Romans 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, is Paul saying that sin is a "byproduct of the Law" or is Paul saying that until the Law sin was in the world, but not imputed as a transgression of the Law?

Continue the passage you started -
Romans 7:10-11 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Is Paul saying that the Law produced sin or that sin took opportunity through the commandment?

Paul's point is that sin existed from Adam forward, but those apart from the Law did not sin as Adam sinned (their sin was not a transgression of a commandment, but it was still sin).

The Law magnified sin. Sin even increased under the Law as things became sin for those under that covenant.

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Romans 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, is Paul saying that sin is a "byproduct of the Law" or is Paul saying that until the Law sin was in the world, but not imputed as a transgression of the Law?

Continue the passage you started -
Romans 7:10-11 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Is Paul saying that the Law produced sin or that sin took opportunity through the commandment?

Paul's point is that sin existed from Adam forward, but those apart from the Law did not sin as Adam sinned (their sin was not a transgression of a commandment, but it was still sin).

The Law magnified sin. Sin even increased under the Law as things became sin for those under that covenant.

There was real sin before the Mosaic Law came, see Cain!

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't worry about the morality of Scripture because I am not it's author.

Except scripture doesn't say that.

 

[JonC]

Except scripture doesn't say that.

That God draws men to himself or that it is through the work of the Spirit that men come to believe?

 

[JonC]

There was real sin before the Mosaic Law came, see Cain!

But that sin was not man transgressing the Law.

 

[MB]

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Romans 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, is Paul saying that sin is a "byproduct of the Law" or is Paul saying that until the Law sin was in the world, but not imputed as a transgression of the Law?

Think about this. Was Adam punished because He sinned? I believe He was. He could have live in the Garden forever if he hadn't sinned. So sin was imputed to Adam. Why? Because God Him Self told Him not to eat of the fruit from the tree of good and evil.
Why else would God kill all those people in the world with a flood.

Continue the passage you started -
Romans 7:10-11 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Is Paul saying that the Law produced sin or that sin took opportunity through the commandment?

Common sense tells me that if a man is told not to do something he automatically becomes more likely to do it. This I feel is what Adam and Eve dealt with.

Paul's point is that sin existed from Adam forward, but those apart from the Law did not sin as Adam sinned (their sin was not a transgression of a commandment, but it was still sin).

I believe Adam was commanded and warned about the good and evil fruit. God told Adam not to eat it.
Sin actually started in Heaven with Satan's pride. It came down from Heaven when Satan was cast out. When Moses gave us the 10 commandments this did cause sin to increase.

The Law magnified sin. Sin even increased under the Law as things became sin for those under that covenant.

Yes it did Although a Law doesn't have to written for man to understand when something isn;t right to do. Like I said before the Law is written on our hearts.
MB

 

[Rippon]

I know it's double negation. What's your point?

You weren't aware of your double negative until I pointed it out. When you make that mistake you are not communicating effectively.

So saying God wills that no man perish is nonsense.

In 2 Peter 3:9, despite the protestations of non-Calvinists --it is referencing the elect. He doesn't will that any of his chosen ones perish eternally.

Look. If God really will that none perish, and He alone can save, then he should save all. Not saving all means He Wills that some perish.

You're not being biblical. The Lord has the right to do whatever he so desires to do with his creation. He is under no obligation to save any. However, out of his love and grace he has chosen to save a number that no one can count.

The Lord owes no one anything. All his ways are perfect and he does all that he pleases to do without consulting puny humans who want to put him in their dock.

The Lord mercies some and hardens the rest. Do you wish to argue that that is unjust?! Who are you to argue with the Almighty? You're just a mere human being.

 

[JonC]

Think about this. Was Adam punished because He sinned? I believe He was. He could have live in the Garden forever if he hadn't sinned. So sin was imputed to Adam. Why? Because God Him Self told Him not to eat of the fruit from the tree of good and evil.
Why else would God kill all those people in the world with a flood.

Common sense tells me that if a man is told not to do something he automatically becomes more likely to do it. This I feel is what Adam and Eve dealt with.

I believe Adam was commanded and warned about the good and evil fruit. God told Adam not to eat it.
Sin actually started in Heaven with Satan's pride. It came down from Heaven when Satan was cast out. When Moses gave us the 10 commandments this did cause sin to increase.

Yes it did Although a Law doesn't have to written for man to understand when something isn;t right to do. Like I said before the Law is written on our hearts.
MB

We were talking past each other, I think. The passage you quoted deals with the Law (Torah), not the law of God (God's nature). In the passage I provided, Paul makes this distinction as well (sin apart from the Law from Adam to Moses, and elsewhere pointing out Abraham was not under the Law as it was given 400 years later).

Sin is a rebellion against God, and without the existence of God there would be no sin.

 

[JonC]

You're not being biblical.

Forget biblical, he's not being honest. He has read where Calvin and Calvinists reject that God authors sin, but he disagrees with their logic, interpretation and application. But as Scripture is, he cannot settle this centuries old argument. So he misrepresents.

It reminds me of children, when they are very young. Sometimes they latch onto a word or phrase spoken and take it out of context ("but you said the next time....", etc). When they are young enough, it may not be lying, but misunderstanding context or intent. Agent47 seems old enough to know better, so it's an intentional attempt deception. Or trolling...But who cares? It's dishonest either way.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Common sense tells me that if a man is told not to do something he automatically becomes more likely to do it. This I feel is what Adam and Eve dealt with.

This is more than slightly bonkers. Do speeding laws make people more likely to speed? Do the laws against murder make people more likely to murder? If so, why do we have laws against anything? Just abolish all laws and their would be no sin.

 

[Revmitchell]

That God draws men to himself or that it is through the work of the Spirit that men come to believe?

That He doesn't draw some people but does draw others.

 

[JonC]

That He doesn't draw some people but does draw others.

Yes, I know.

I believe that God calls all to salvation, and to a salvation legitimately offered and made possible to all. But I do not believe God save all men.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, I know.

I believe that God calls all to salvation, and to a salvation legitimately offered and made possible to all. But I do not believe God save all men.

Well I have tried but I cannot narrow you down to a consistent belief in this area. This is contrary to what you have previously said.

 

[JonC]

Well I have tried but I cannot narrow you down to a consistent belief in this area. This is contrary to what you have previously said.

Really? Are you sure because my position here has not changed for a long time.

Where do you see a contradiction in what I said before and what I am saying now?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A long time ago, Agent 47 wrote:

Meaning he is Sovereign without authoring specific acts of His creation.

To which I replied:
Not so. God's decree is universal (Daniel 4:34-35; Romans 8:28; Romans 11:26; Ephesians 1:11).
It covers good and evil events (Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6; Job 1:21; Jeremiah 15:2).
It covers the sinful acts of men (Genesis 50:20; 2 Samuel 16:10-11; Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23 and of course Acts 4:27-28).
It covers the free acts of men (Proverbs 16:1, 9: Proverbs 19:21; Proverbs 21:1; Romans 8:28, 35-39).
It covers chance occurrences (1 Kings 22:28-34; Job 5:6; Job 36:32; Proverbs 16:33; Jonah 1:7).
It covers all details of our lives (Job 14:5; Psalm 139:16; Matthew 10:29-30; James 4:15).
Please especially read Isaiah 14:24-27 and Isaiah 46:10-11.

I think we may be quite certain that Agent 47 never read any of the Scriptures that I laboriously compiled for him, since he has never reacted to any of them.

However, let's consider how God's absolute sovereignty over events affects a wicked act like the beheading of the Egyptian Christians by ISIS in Libya.

First of all, did God force ISIS to murder these men? No. 'Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God." For God cannot be tempted, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed' (James 1:13-14). The action was planned and executed by the evil design of ISIS. None of the killers was thinking to himself, "I really don't want to kill these men but I......just.....can't.....stop myself!" They did it willingly and culpably.

So what was God's role in it? He decreed it in eternity for His own high and holy ends. Is that evil? No, Those men have been in Paradise ever since, far happier than you or I. Why did He decree it? I am not privy to God's secret counsels, but I note that many Moslems were appalled by the act, and impressed by the way that the men's wives and parents forgave the murderers and prayed for them to be forgiven. As a result many hundreds -- maybe thousands -- of Egyptian Moslems have become Christians including several imams. The deaths of these, and other Christians, across the Middle East, is bringing about a great conversion of Moslems which might never have happened otherwise. As Tertullian wrote, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.

It is a very, very foolish thing to accuse God of evil. 'Woe to him who strives with His Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him who forms it, "What are you making?" Or shall your handiwork say, "He has no hands"? Woe to him who says to his father, "What are you begetting?" Or to the woman, "What have you brought forth?"' (Isaiah 45:9-10).

 

[MB]

This is more than slightly bonkers. Do speeding laws make people more likely to speed?

Yes and the more restrictive the more frequent the offense.

Do the laws against murder make people more likely to murder?

Have you ever seen a Law against it actually stop a murder?

, If so, why do we have laws against anything? Just abolish all laws and their would be no sin.

Utopia huh? Actually they did away with laws against marijuana where I live and now there are less pot heads because they say this took all the fun out of it. Go figure!
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

Really? Are you sure because my position here has not changed for a long time.

Where do you see a contradiction in what I said before and what I am saying now?

Post # 173