Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

[Agent47]

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be an excuse or an apology, but it works as neither. You are responsible for your own ignorance, and you should address it first by reading the Bible. Then you might go and read some of the writings of that great African Baptist preacher, Conrad Mbewe.
http://www.conradmbewe.com/

It's a cue for you to drop insults and sideshows,and focus on the subject or ship out, before you go bald after plucking all your hair in angst

One thing I have never understood are forum members who jump into a thread they are uncomfortable with only to end up throwing tantrums.

How often do you need to be reminded of the OP?

Calvin conception of God is of a moral monster. I just proved that

 

[Rippon]

God is under no obligation to save nobody, and he does not even attempt to.

That's a double negative, you meant "...to save anyone, and he does not even attempt to [do so]"

Certainly he is under no obligation to save anyone. With that I agree. But then you follow with the absurdity that he doesn't even attempt to save anyone. That's just plain crazy. The Bible is against that lunacy as well as Calvin.

What is dishonest is claiming that He died for everyone or he wants all saved. The double speak is nauseating.

Calvinists don't believe in that inconsistency just as Calvin did not hold to it.

He then struts across history saving a lucky few of those He damned.

God does not damn and then save. That is a crazy charge.

 

[Rippon]

A very evil doctrine.

You are calling the authority of God's word evil. Be careful where and how you tread.

 

[JonC]

A very evil doctrine.

I don't worry about the morality of Scripture because I am not it's author.

 

[Agent47]

That's a double negative, you meant "...to save anyone, and he does not even attempt to [do so]"

I know it's double negation. What's your point?

Certainly he is under no obligation to save anyone. With that I agree. But then you follow with the absurdity that he doesn't even attempt to save anyone. That's just plain crazy. The Bible is against that lunacy as well as Calvin.

That lunacy of external call to ALL but internal call/drawing to the Elect explains it.

Does God not know that the external/general call is hopelessly ineffectual? He does. So don't wave that as evidence of attempting to save. He is only concerned with the Elect. He does not care for the rest.

So saying God wills that no man perish is nonsense.

Look. If God really will that none perish, and He alone can save, then he should save all. Not saving all means He Wills that some perish.

In short, it is a contradiction to claim God wills none perish, while maintaining He draws some of the perishing and not all, especially given they are perishing out of his eternal decree.

Calvinists don't believe in that inconsistency just as Calvin did not hold to it.

Calvin doubted the implications of his theories. Sheer madness.

God does not damn and then save. That is a crazy charge.

Who decreed,ordained,rendered certain the Fall?

 

[JonC]

Right so if 10 of your children swam in a direction they are not suppose to, Although I can call them all I decide to call 3 rather instead of all of them. Did I just let 7 die? That's not evil on my part is it?[/QUOTE47"]Perhaps, in terms of the illustration you chose (the lifejacket). Illustrations always fail at a point. If it were me, I would have gone with an illustration about a king inviting people to a wedding feast. But we work with what we can.

So in application, no. God is not obligated to save everyone because the universe is centered on God and not man. Which is really the fundamental difference we are discussing here. Calvinists typically have God at the center of salvation rather than man.

This is evident in your conclusion that if God does not save all he cannot save any, lest he be an evil God, so God humbly makes a way for man and pleads with them to enter, being very careful not to disrespect man by influencing his decision, but ever hoping as he anticipates the privilege of spending eternity with at least some who will see fit to accompany him for eternity.

 

[Agent47]

You are calling the authority of God's word evil. Be careful where and how you tread.

You can do better than conflate a hollow theory with scriptures.

Calvin invented a divine monster who masterminds a catastrophe by decree, and then attempts to undo/salvage it by more decrees.

Caught in between are billions who will burn in hell as part of the plan

 

[Rippon]

Caught in between are billions who will burn in hell as part of the plan

Everyone deserves everlasting torment in Perdition. Do you deny that core biblical belief?
Everyone is responsible for their sins. God does not make anyone sin. He doesn't even tempt them.
Because all are accountable for their actions and thoughts they deserve condemnation. Out of his divine mercy he saves those of his choosing whom he elected before the foundation of the world.

 

[Agent47]

Everyone deserves everlasting torment in Perdition. Do you deny that core biblical belief?

Not everyone but sinners. Infants for instance don't deserve domination.

Everyone is responsible for their sins. God does not make anyone sin. He doesn't even tempt them.
Because all are accountable for their actions and thoughts they deserve condemnation.

Calvin agrees with you. He also adds that God authored Sin. For nothing happens except he decrees it.

Out of his divine mercy he saves those of his choosing whom he elected before the foundation of the world.

God wills ALL be saved. The Elect are those who receive God's gift.

 

[Yeshua1]

First of all, you know nothing about my theological background so stop making judgements without evidence. Secondly, you are not intelligent enough to read Hodge, any more than you are to read Calvin. All you are doing is pulling tiny portions of these men's works out of context, probably off some atheist or Pelagian website, and presenting them without proper understanding. Until you understand more of the Bible, you are only making a fool of yourself.

I'd like to take a moment to discuss 'Free Will.' Does it exist? If you offer me the choice between tea and coffee, do I have free will to choose either, or is my will in bondage to the fact that I prefer the taste of coffee? If the light of the Gospel comes to men, do they have free will to accept or reject it? Not according to the Lord Jesus Christ. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19). The will of man is in bondage to the desire to do whatever he jolly well likes without God interfering. 'The natural man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him.......' (1 Corinthians 2:14). Why would he want to obey God when it's so much more fun (he thinks) to do one's own thing.

Now I'd like to look briefly at the question of the curse on the earth, which seems to worry you. Obviously it is God's righteous judgement that sinful men and women are not going to live on a perfect earth, but are you absolutely sure that it was not also for man's benefit? Genesis 3:17. 'Cursed is the ground for your sake.' Now several modern translations render this, '.........because of you' which is quite feasible, but perhaps the curse is actually for our good. There are certain virtues that we will not acquire in heaven; we must obtain them here. Who could show courage if there was nothing to fear? Or pity, if there was no misfortune? Or mercy, if no one was ever in trouble? Or kindness or generosity, if no one ever needed anything? We learn these virtues in this fallen world and take them with us to heaven.

You are very unwise to blame God for being God and ruling His universe. The arguments that you are putting forward are very similar to those I have read by atheists like Christopher Hitchens. No self-respecting Arminian would have anything to do with them. When (if) you get to heaven, you will find that God has done all things well. He is infinitely more intelligent than you are, so stop standing in judgement upon Him. You can beat your brains out (such as they are) for a month of Sundays and you will not discover the origin of evil, because God has not told us about it. 'The secret things belong to the LORD our God' (Deuteronomy 29:29), and that's one of them.

Think tat our friend has just skimmed some theology books, already decided that he knows tey were wrong, we have reral free will, and are not so bad as sinners. Think that he needs to focus on the Bible for now, and really get into Gospel of John!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe god refuses to pursuade the non elect as cals define it in the same way?

He leaves them to what they reall want to do,to keep on rejecting Him and have their "own way"

 

[Yeshua1]

God is under no obligation to save nobody, and he does not even attempt to. What is dishonest is claiming that He died for everyone or he wants all saved. The double speak is nauseating.

What's more, even the sinners were ordained to Sin including Adam. There is no reasonable excuse for escaping the charge.that God authored Sin by which men are damned. He then struts across history saving a lucky few of those He damned.

You realy need to stop mocking God, for unless He extended grace towards ay of us here, all would be lost!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be an excuse or an apology, but it works as neither. You are responsible for your own ignorance, and you should address it first by reading the Bible. Then you might go and read some of the writings of that great African Baptist preacher, Conrad Mbewe.
http://www.conradmbewe.com/

Our friend just need to stay in the Bible, and read it to get further understanding, as the Holy Spiri can show Him how God saved us.... Th man problem is tht he cannot read Hodge/Calvin/Berkhof until he gets groundedi n the scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

Everyone deserves everlasting torment in Perdition. Do you deny that core biblical belief?
Everyone is responsible for their sins. God does not make anyone sin. He doesn't even tempt them.
Because all are accountable for their actions and thoughts they deserve condemnation. Out of his divine mercy he saves those of his choosing whom he elected before the foundation of the world.

What is inteesting is tat we have one hre who denies that we choose to sin and get judged by God as being accountible, and another who posts hre that in Christ God saved all sinners...

 

[MB]

As I shared with @JonC , I came to inescapable conclusion that in Calvinism, God invented/designed and effected sin vide his agents (creatures).

But this I can't find in scriptures not in God in Flesh,Jesus Christ.

Now, it's quite possible my conclusion are flawed like Mary correctly finding an empty tomb but erroneously concluding Jesus' body stolen. So I will try and simply explain why I arrived at this conclusion, and why it is the only logical conclusion possible, such that to hold anything else, Calvin must have been wrong.

For this, I will focus on John Calvin's works.

Again, this is not to find fault in Calvin but rather to demonstrate that my conclusions are valid.

To start with, I think I should define what I mean by authoring sin.

Author means the one who originates an idea. If I can answer 'whose idea was it' I have found the author.

The author is not necessarily the one who executes the idea but the fact that they came up with it remains.

An example;
Exodus 1:22 (KJV)
And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Who authored this heinous act?

Was it the Hebrews? No
What about the soldiers who carried it out? No. It is irrelevant whether they were coerced into it; they never came up with the idea.

What about Pharaoh who most probably never killed any Hebrew infant?
His intent was executed. So he is the mastermind;he authored the crime.

In short,
If something is decreed,and as a result its intention is executed,the author of the decree is necessarily the author of the fulfilled/executed intention.

Obviously God authors His own decrees. And the question we need to interrogate is whether according to Calvin God decreed/authored sin.

So John Calvin, did God author sin?
No? But did he not decree sin?

This is not about what Calvin was not directly propagating, but rather what He was effectively communicating.

God did not create sin. Sin is a byproduct of the Law. We cannot have Law with out someone breaking the Law. Sin, is not following what the Law demands. The Law was created for man to live by and man fails by the Law.
I'm thankful we are no longer under the Law.
MB

 

[JonC]

God did not create sin. Sin is a byproduct of the Law. We cannot have Law with out someone breaking the Law. Sin, is not following what the Law demands. The Law was created for man to live by and man fails by the Law.
I'm thankful we are no longer under the Law.
MB

What of Paul's explanation that sin exists apart from the Law and apart from a direct commandment from God, that men have in fact sinned apart from the Law, and that the Law was given to magnify sin, to show those to whom it was given their sin through trangression and to keep them locked up in sin until Christ?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Calvin conception of God is of a moral monster. I just proved that

Your problem is that you neither know God nor understand Calvin.
Calvin is just this man who wrote a lot of stuff. That you do not understand what he wrote is not any problem to me. As I wrote at the start, there is a pile of stuff about which I disagree with him.

But I know God well enough to know that the Lord Jesus Christ died for me- me personally. He did not die to make it possible for me to save myself; He Himself saved me. I know that you don't care what God says in His word, but He says that when I was dead- not just a bit poorly, but dead- in sin, God made me alive in Christ. I now know God as my Father and Christ as my co-heir and Saviour through the witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:14-17). So I care when you blaspheme Him whom I love.

You too can come to know God, through Christ, for He promises not to turn away any who come to Him. But if you come, you will realise that you have only come because He has loved you with an everlasting love, and opened your heart to receive Him (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Acts 16:14, not that you care).

 

[MB]

What of Paul's explanation that sin exists apart from the Law and apart from a direct commandment from God, that men have in fact sinned apart from the Law, and that the Law was given to magnify sin, to show those to whom it was given their sin through trangression and to keep them locked up in sin until Christ?

Could you show scripture for this please. Paul said;
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

You are calling the authority of God's word evil. Be careful where and how you tread.

Mitchell is no friend to truth....this is just part of his thought process on display.

 

[Yeshua1]

God determined beforehand that man would sin. He also determined to save some of those who he determined would sin.

It follows that He damns everyone, then blames them before saving some of these.

The sinner in hell is there because God predestined him to be there. Please interact with Calvin quotes I shared.

Th sinner went to Hell because they chose to disobey God and to stay in their sins, so God decreed that Hell would be them getting their choices...