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Featured The genuine gospel is neither Arminian nor Calvinist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AndThisGospel, Jan 9, 2017.

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  1. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    "all men died in Him" [2 Cor 5:14]
     
    #101 AndThisGospel, Jan 17, 2017
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The contex of the "all men" would be all those whom he saved!
     
    #102 Yeshua1, Jan 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  3. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    No Sir, that's not the context. The text clearly states that "One (Christ as the Son of Man) died for all, therefore all died"

    If your life from Adam (your "old self") wasn't crucified with Christ (see Rom 6:6) 2000 years ago then you stand condemned and not "justified unto life" (see Rom 5:18). When we "were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son." Rom 5:10
     
    #103 AndThisGospel, Jan 17, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, the all men would be those whom God intended to save, His chosen in Chrsit, and those promises ONLY apply to the saved, not to the lost!
     
    #104 Yeshua1, Jan 17, 2017
  5. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    The dilemma of presenting Calvin's limited atonement is one never really knows if God has chosen him to be part of the elect. Perhaps he has been chosen for damnation and he just thinks that he is saved? That would make him self-deceived.

    There's no assurance of salvation "in Christ" in Calvin's limited atonement heresy.....
     
    #105 AndThisGospel, Jan 17, 2017
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    If all men, meaning every single person who ever lived, died in Christ then they are all saved and we shall see Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and Jack the Ripper in heaven.
     
    #106 Martin Marprelate, Jan 17, 2017
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I'm a Calvinist and I know. :)
     
    #107 Martin Marprelate, Jan 17, 2017
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  8. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    1. If they are in heaven they will be a "new creation"....They will no longer have their "fallen natures" and they will perfectly reflect God's agape love.
    2. Did these man accept the gospel? Most likely not. Why? The fruit of the gospel - the fruit of accepting Christ is a change in that believer. Those who practice sin, as a lifestyle, prove that their faith is not in Christ (see 1 John 3:8/Gal 5:21)
     
    #108 AndThisGospel, Jan 18, 2017
  9. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    How do you know that God has chosen you as part of the elect?
     
    #109 AndThisGospel, Jan 18, 2017
  10. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Yes, I know what you are stating, but that's not what Paul states. So have it your way, but it is not the gospel....

    The gospel is that "all men" have been reconciled and justified in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ. In Him the human race stands perfect. Christ is "the last Adam".

    However, not all men will accept this truth. These will be lost....
     
    #110 AndThisGospel, Jan 18, 2017
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  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Because I'm a sinner, and Christ Jesus came into the world to save ungodly sinners such as me (Mark 2:17; Romans 5:6; 1 Timothy 1:15). How do you know?
     
    #111 Martin Marprelate, Jan 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I was trying to show you the inconsistency of your position, but obviously I failed. Let me try again. If everyone who ever lived 'died in Christ,' if they have been 'justified' (these are your words), then they have been saved. 'If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new' (2 Cor. 5:17). If Hitler & Co. died 'in Christ,' they were new creations. Moreover, 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus' (Romans 8:1), so, according to you, there is no condemnation to anyone, since every person who ever lived is justified (declared righteous) and 'in Christ.'

    I want to come back to on your understanding of the word 'all,' but I don't have time right now to do it thoroughly. Is it your understanding that 'all' always means 'every single one without exception'?

    Perhaps you have seen the film Chittychittybangbang. There the child-catcher cries out, "Sweeties, lollipops! All free today!" Did he mean that every sweet in the entire world was free that day? Or was he referring to the particular sweets that he had in his cart? That every mint humbug, lollipop, gobstopper and liquorice allsort without exception that was in his cart was free?

    I'll pursue this thought in a day or two as I have time, and deal with some of the texts that you have quoted.
     
    #112 Martin Marprelate, Jan 18, 2017
  13. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    I like your answer, but a true Calvinist would never know if he has salvation.

    "God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21)"
     
    #113 AndThisGospel, Jan 18, 2017
  14. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    We need to backup and clarify some terms. Hitler the individual didn't die "in Christ" 2000 years ago. Hitler didn't exist 2000 years ago as an individual, but he was in loins of his ancestors all the way back to Adam.

    You see all of us share one humanity - Adam's life after the fall. Hence all of us are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life - a life indwelt with sin (iniquity). That's why Paul states that "in Adam all die".

    Then what exactly died "in Christ" 2000 years ago (see Rom 6:6/7:4)? Answer: Our Adamic life, i.e., the fallen life we all share with Adam.

    In assuming our Adamic life Christ, as the Son of Man, rewrote our history from condemnation to "no condemnation" (see Roman 5:18/Rom 8:1). That work is finish - it is complete. It is a past, historical event.

    At the crucifixion our Adamic life died the 2nd death "in Christ". Christ's Deity did not die, rather our Adamic life (Christ as the Son of Man) died forever.

    In the resurrection God the Father didn't raise our fallen Adamic life up, but instead raised up Christ with a glorified, immortal life. This life He took to heaven to represent us before the Father and His law (see Col 1:13/Eph 2:6). In Him we are complete.
     
    #114 AndThisGospel, Jan 18, 2017
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Please refrain from telling untruths regarding what others believe. I know I am elect because I believe Christ died for my sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again from the dead for my justification.
     
    #115 TCassidy, Jan 18, 2017
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  16. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    I do not doubt Martin's and your salvation "in Christ"....That's not my point.

    Is this not true of Calvinism?

    "God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21)"
     
    #116 AndThisGospel, Jan 18, 2017
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The saved wil knowthat they are elect, as that fact is made by the Spiri unto them. That is why the message of Jesus goes out to all, as the elect willreceive it gladly, and only Godknows who those are!
    Sinners not saved ill have no remorse over that, as God is allowing thm to get their will done!
     
    #117 Yeshua1, Jan 18, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    And Judas....
     
    #118 Yeshua1, Jan 18, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    John stated that we can know Jesus, and know we now have eternal life, right??
     
    #119 Yeshua1, Jan 18, 2017
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God states to us that while yet sinners, outside of Christ, were enemies at war with God, so how they also be reconciled already?
     
    #120 Yeshua1, Jan 18, 2017
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