Featured Free Will, Determinism, and Compatiblism

Our choices are based off God's arrangements of circumstances

 

Augustine and Pelagius had a similar discussion.
Augustine won the argument, hands down.
Augustine argued that salvation is predetermined by God (predestination).
Pelagius argued that salvation is determined by the will of the human who chooses God over sin.
Pelagius was declared a heretic.

Later on the same arguments were developed by Calvin while Arminius argued for a Pelagian viewpoint.

In North America you see the Great Awakening happening due to those who taught similar ideas to Augustine and Calvin (Whitefield and Edwards).
In the 2nd Great Awakening you see Pelagian views being taught by Finney. From Finney we can trace Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness as well as many other cults.
Do a historical research on the impact of those who follow Augustine verses those who follow Pelagius in regard to predestination and free will. You will find a stark contrast as to the work God has done and it's lasting effects.
As for semi-Pelagian views, which most North American Christians unknowingly hold to, the contradictions are too numerous to layout here in a discussion forum. It becomes, for the semi-Pelagianist, an exercise in using a biblical proof text as a pretext, out of context. But, since such a view still allows the human to be in control with a nod to God's sovereignty, most Christians think it's God honoring to mix the two into a stew.
In the end, people who want to think they are important to their own salvation will not give up that notion until God's word punches them in the face with the message of God's absolute, total, sovereignty and authority.
We humans do not give up our control and pride easily.

 

Augustine had to contend against same belief laid out by the Manichaens.

Chapter 6.— Nature Which Cannot Be Corrupted is the Highest Good; That Which Can, is Some Good

But if corruption take away all measure, all form, all order from corruptible things, no nature will remain. And consequently every nature which cannot be corrupted is the highest good, as is God. But every nature that can be corrupted is also itself some good; for corruption cannot injure it, except by taking away from or diminishing that which is good. --Augustine (On the Nature of Good) chap 6


In other words by the time you get to #2 on your list you have already destroyed us. As Augustine says no nature will remain. Not even human, no person is there.



Even proper Calvinist will tell you or should tell you everyone is "already dead". which is a problem for terms like REgeneration, the "RE" implies a restoration rather then a first time generation.

Its like if I built a car with no wheels and someone walks up and says when will you Rebuild it? It never had 4 wheels before what do you mean?

Regeneration implies there used to be 4 wheels.



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Chapter 12.— All Good Things are from God Alone
All these things are so perspicuous, so assured, that if they who introduce another nature which God did not make, were willing to give attention, they would not be filled with so great blasphemies, as that they should place so great good things in supreme evil, and so great evil things in God. For what the truth compels them to acknowledge, namely, that all good things are from God alone, suffices for their correction, if they were willing to give heed, as I said above. Not, therefore, are great good things from one, and small good things from another; but good things great and small are from the supremely good alone, which is God. --ST AUGUSTINE.

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Absolutely all good things come from God. Its important to establish this for what is said next.




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Chapter 20.— Pain Only in Good Natures
But pain which some suppose to be in a special manner an evil, whether it be in mind or in body, cannot exist except in good natures. For the very fact of resistance in any being leading to pain, involves a refusal not to be what it was, because it was something good; but when a being is compelled to something better, the pain is useful, when to something worse, it is useless. Therefore in the case of the mind, the will resisting a greater power causes pain; in the case of the body, sensation resisting a more powerful body causes pain. But evils without pain are worse: for it is worse to rejoice iniquity than to bewail corruption; yet even such rejoicing cannot exist save from the attainment of inferior good things. But iniquity is the desertion of better things. Likewise in a body, a wound with pain is better than painless putrescence, which is especially called the corruption which the dead flesh of the Lord did not see, that is, did not suffer, as was predicted in prophecy: "You shall not suffer Your Holy one to see corruption." For who denies that He was wounded by the piercing of the nails, and that He was stabbed with the lance? But even what is properly called by men corporeal corruption, that is, putrescence itself, if as yet there is anything left to consume, increases by the diminution of the good. But if corruption shall have absolutely consumed it, so that there is no good, no nature will remain, for there will be nothing that corruption may corrupt; and so there will not even be putrescence, for there will be nowhere at all for it to be.

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Something depraved of GOOD can't suffer pain or bad things happening to it.
On the contrary evil would rejoice on evil received.

If you took a hammer and smashed a totally depraved person's hand, Do it again would be his proper response.

The last time you ever cried from pain of something bad happening to you, did you do the crying or did God?





This is a simple challenge. SIN is UNATURAL. I can show you countless scripture of sin being an abomination.

This term "sin nature" is false and unbiblical.


ALL NATURE is GOD CREATED. Nature is what is meant to be.


Before Adam sinned who would argue he had a corrupted nature?

"Nature" has no bearing.

"Sin Nature" Is just another excuse invented by people who want to blame GOD for their sins.

 

Our choices run off molecules. There are no Maverick molecule running loose. That means God is your boss whether you like it or not. That's good news to us but why is it such bad news to you? [comment snipped]

 

We definitely have limitations I can't will a pile a money into existence. Its by God's grace neither of us is a Muslim or Samaritan, But there is such thing as a good Samaritan the conditions for his salvation may be different from ours.

Luke 12

41Peter said, “Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” 42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45“But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.


To whom much is given much is required. We also see this with the parable of the talents. The circumstances are taken into account.


You could have been brought up totally evil by evil parents and trained to know only evil and have no knowledge of Jesus inside some strange other religion ect.. That doesn't mean your unselect or God wants you damned. If any other soul was in your shoes they might turn out to be 10 times worst, we don't know, God knows. But God does not invade or rewrite your soul.


Romans 11

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

We are told a reason you might shown mercy is because someone else fell and that person can still get mercy through you. God even groups the evil and good together as one group so the mercy falls on all.

Jesus Christ as he is being tortured and killed, appeals to forgive them even excuses them for ignorance (know not what they do).

Stephen, The first to die after Christ, that has to count for something, He begs God and Jesus not to even count the sin being committed on him.

Paul says he willing to be damned if it could bring those separated from God back together.

They are not talking about sticking up for qualified elect folks.


If I could hear any Calvinist sound anything like these guys I would be SHOCKED, let alone if Calvinist would remotely applaud Jesus, Stephen and Paul.

In fact I've had some deny Jesus ever said "forgive them, they know not what they do", on account it wasn't said in all gospels.

I'm still waiting, I hope your the first one I run into.

 

I do not read Augustine's writing....I read scripture.

 

What I'm hearing Jon is God only wins checkers because he moves his pieces for you.

God doesn't need to know the future or touch one thing. He can beat you in checkers with one piece, blindfolded.

He can create people with free will. Right off the bat your idea of God is less educated because you impose too many limitations to omnipotence just because the "power" would not work for you.


God shows up at your house to move your car, You peek behind him and ask......where is your tow truck? Calvinism tries to explain with primitive selfish human motives.

He damns folks for his "GLORY", ie to show off. Flaunt like a foolish child.

God is not a kid, doesn't need to show off, and only evil would at someone else's expense.

*** Post has been edited by JonC to remove assertions defining what another member believes and off topic comments.

 

First let me AGAIN state I'm not insisting what you believe, maybe you can help me make this my signature so I don't trip "assertions defining what another member believes".

Kind of shocked that rule exists, after all I've heard I worship Mary, statues, and believe works save a person...... I can go on and on.



Hey Look we agree, Libertarian free will is stupid. My opinion doesn't dictate God is Sovereign in choice of system.

Example in the beginning before God created anything I can claim a absolute determined system and that God is a universalist.

I can hold plenty of opinions of possibilities. What I don't do is jump the gun or go over God's head.

As Dumb as libertarian free will sounds to me, Does God have the capacity to enact this system?


God can decide EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING, up front we both agree.

God can decide not to decide <--- Some how alien concept for some of us.

GOD IS GOOD, source of all GOOD, billions goody good, nothing but God is good at everything.

God can teach anyone to be good themselves <--- Some how alien and impossible concept for some of us.


God can forgive EVERYTHING and everyone for all sins he wants, up front both agree

GOD can withhold mercy from who he wants <---Some how we ASSUME HE WILL.


"the point I have been trying to get you to understand is men are condemned for their sin as they freely (of their own accord) choose to "reject the Light."

Not a Calvinist, got it. <-joke

Please reconcile your statement with Irresistible grace. Also you said they sin by rejecting the light, this implies God wants all to be saved, correct?

Irresistible grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, ...