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Free Will, Determinism, and Compatiblism
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Augustine and Pelagius had a similar discussion.
Augustine won the argument, hands down.
Augustine argued that salvation is predetermined by God (predestination).
Pelagius argued that salvation is determined by the will of the human who chooses God over sin.
Pelagius was declared a heretic.
Later on the same arguments were developed by Calvin while Arminius argued for a Pelagian viewpoint.
In North America you see the Great Awakening happening due to those who taught similar ideas to Augustine and Calvin (Whitefield and Edwards).
In the 2nd Great Awakening you see Pelagian views being taught by Finney. From Finney we can trace Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness as well as many other cults.
Do a historical research on the impact of those who follow Augustine verses those who follow Pelagius in regard to predestination and free will. You will find a stark contrast as to the work God has done and it's lasting effects.
As for semi-Pelagian views, which most North American Christians unknowingly hold to, the contradictions are too numerous to layout here in a discussion forum. It becomes, for the semi-Pelagianist, an exercise in using a biblical proof text as a pretext, out of context. But, since such a view still allows the human to be in control with a nod to God's sovereignty, most Christians think it's God honoring to mix the two into a stew.
In the end, people who want to think they are important to their own salvation will not give up that notion until God's word punches them in the face with the message of God's absolute, total, sovereignty and authority.
We humans do not give up our control and pride easily.
Augustine had to contend against same belief laid out by the Manichaens.
Chapter 6.— Nature Which Cannot Be Corrupted is the Highest Good; That Which Can, is Some Good
But if corruption take away all measure, all form, all order from corruptible things, no nature will remain. And consequently every nature which cannot be corrupted is the highest good, as is God. But every nature that can be corrupted is also itself some good; for corruption cannot injure it, except by taking away from or diminishing that which is good. --Augustine (On the Nature of Good) chap 6
In other words by the time you get to #2 on your list you have already destroyed us. As Augustine says no nature will remain. Not even human, no person is there.
Even proper Calvinist will tell you or should tell you everyone is "already dead". which is a problem for terms like REgeneration, the "RE" implies a restoration rather then a first time generation.
Its like if I built a car with no wheels and someone walks up and says when will you Rebuild it? It never had 4 wheels before what do you mean?
Regeneration implies there used to be 4 wheels.
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Chapter 12.— All Good Things are from God Alone
All these things are so perspicuous, so assured, that if they who introduce another nature which God did not make, were willing to give attention, they would not be filled with so great blasphemies, as that they should place so great good things in supreme evil, and so great evil things in God. For what the truth compels them to acknowledge, namely, that all good things are from God alone, suffices for their correction, if they were willing to give heed, as I said above. Not, therefore, are great good things from one, and small good things from another; but good things great and small are from the supremely good alone, which is God. --ST AUGUSTINE.
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Absolutely all good things come from God. Its important to establish this for what is said next.
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Chapter 20.— Pain Only in Good Natures
But pain which some suppose to be in a special manner an evil, whether it be in mind or in body, cannot exist except in good natures. For the very fact of resistance in any being leading to pain, involves a refusal not to be what it was, because it was something good; but when a being is compelled to something better, the pain is useful, when to something worse, it is useless. Therefore in the case of the mind, the will resisting a greater power causes pain; in the case of the body, sensation resisting a more powerful body causes pain. But evils without pain are worse: for it is worse to rejoice iniquity than to bewail corruption; yet even such rejoicing cannot exist save from the attainment of inferior good things. But iniquity is the desertion of better things. Likewise in a body, a wound with pain is better than painless putrescence, which is especially called the corruption which the dead flesh of the Lord did not see, that is, did not suffer, as was predicted in prophecy: "You shall not suffer Your Holy one to see corruption." For who denies that He was wounded by the piercing of the nails, and that He was stabbed with the lance? But even what is properly called by men corporeal corruption, that is, putrescence itself, if as yet there is anything left to consume, increases by the diminution of the good. But if corruption shall have absolutely consumed it, so that there is no good, no nature will remain, for there will be nothing that corruption may corrupt; and so there will not even be putrescence, for there will be nowhere at all for it to be.
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Something depraved of GOOD can't suffer pain or bad things happening to it.
On the contrary evil would rejoice on evil received.
If you took a hammer and smashed a totally depraved person's hand, Do it again would be his proper response.
The last time you ever cried from pain of something bad happening to you, did you do the crying or did God?
This is a simple challenge. SIN is UNATURAL. I can show you countless scripture of sin being an abomination.
This term "sin nature" is false and unbiblical.
ALL NATURE is GOD CREATED. Nature is what is meant to be.
Before Adam sinned who would argue he had a corrupted nature?
"Nature" has no bearing.
"Sin Nature" Is just another excuse invented by people who want to blame GOD for their sins.
In what way?
What I mean is, are you saying that God knows what we would do in certain situations because he knows us, so he arranges the circumstances to best generate a desired but not necessary outcome (Open Theism), or that God knows what we will choose so he predestines events based on that pre-knowledge (Arminianism, some free-will theologies)?
Your position here is certainly contrary to libertarian free will, and I have also considered that our choices are based off God's arrangements of circumstances. The problem that I have with holding this view myself is that it seems to loose meaning when you look at how those circumstances are arranged. For example, I could say that I freely chose because of the situation in which I found myself - but those situations are often the results of other people's decisions. Or, a better example - it has been suggested that God did not plan on the betrayal of Joseph by his brothers and instead took advantage of the situation. But the situation (the mother making the coat, Ruben's appeal to spare his brother's life, the Isamaelites route and buying of Joseph, Ruben's absence and return, etc.) are all dependent on human decisions.
My conclusion is that our choices can't be based off God's arrangements of circumstances because those arrangements of circumstances are not separate from our decisions.
So, in keeping with the topic, are you suggesting that men have libertarian free will...that in fact the decisions we make are uninfluenced? Or are you suggesting that our decisions may be influenced by our nature, cultural norms, ideologies, desires, needs, circumstances, psychology, etc., just not by God (that God has no part in those aspects that most see as influencing a person)?
You have a very odd logic about you. I do not believe that this is what Augustine was speaking of, certainly not what Scripture indicates when it is said that God's blessings also fall on the wicked (Psalm 73).
I agree. On the other side of error, there have been "Calvinists" who have denied Compatibilism by rejecting human free agency (Spurgeon spoke of these in two sermons, and Daniel Parker would probably fall into this category).
Our choices run off molecules. There are no Maverick molecule running loose. That means God is your boss whether you like it or not. That's good news to us but why is it such bad news to you? [comment snipped]
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A bit vague here, friend. Perhaps you can shed some light.
Please explain what you mean. Who do you mean as "us", and why do you think that would be bad news to me?
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We definitely have limitations I can't will a pile a money into existence. Its by God's grace neither of us is a Muslim or Samaritan, But there is such thing as a good Samaritan the conditions for his salvation may be different from ours.
Luke 12
41Peter said, “Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” 42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45“But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
To whom much is given much is required. We also see this with the parable of the talents. The circumstances are taken into account.
You could have been brought up totally evil by evil parents and trained to know only evil and have no knowledge of Jesus inside some strange other religion ect.. That doesn't mean your unselect or God wants you damned. If any other soul was in your shoes they might turn out to be 10 times worst, we don't know, God knows. But God does not invade or rewrite your soul.
Romans 11
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
We are told a reason you might shown mercy is because someone else fell and that person can still get mercy through you. God even groups the evil and good together as one group so the mercy falls on all.
Jesus Christ as he is being tortured and killed, appeals to forgive them even excuses them for ignorance (know not what they do).
Stephen, The first to die after Christ, that has to count for something, He begs God and Jesus not to even count the sin being committed on him.
Paul says he willing to be damned if it could bring those separated from God back together.
They are not talking about sticking up for qualified elect folks.
If I could hear any Calvinist sound anything like these guys I would be SHOCKED, let alone if Calvinist would remotely applaud Jesus, Stephen and Paul.
In fact I've had some deny Jesus ever said "forgive them, they know not what they do", on account it wasn't said in all gospels.
I'm still waiting, I hope your the first one I run into.
I understand that people are saved under various circumstances, and I understand that the level of condemnation (per the passage you quote) is greater for those who deny a greater revelation or knowledge. But I do not understand how you determine that conditions FOR salvation may be different from one person to another (unless you are suggesting that there are several “paths” to God…e.g., a “good” man who does not know Christ may know God through his own religion so a person like Gandhi may be saved apart from accepting the exact message of the Cross). If you don’t mind, please expound here so that I may understand you better ** if it has to do with the OP which concerns Compatibilism, Determinism, and free will. Thanks.
What I am saying is that I believe God is sovereign over all, yet we also make our decisions freely.
I do not know what you mean by “qualified elect folks” – but the comment itself demonstrates a severe lack of understanding about Calvinism (and perhaps Scripture). No one is “qualified” to be “elect”. That is the point. Scripture NEVER, not once, speaks of a man being elect who is not also saved. It looks back at one who is saved and calls them elect, but never one who is lost and declares he is elect. And neither does Calvinism.
Let’s look at the love Calvinists of the past have demonstrated for the lost:
William Carey (called the “father of modern missions” ) dedicated his life to reaching the lost with the gospel. And of course we have John Elliot’s work as well. John Newton (wrote “Amazing Grace”) … just wanted to throw that in J.
I’m sure as a prerequisite of posting in accusation of Calvinism, you encountered in your research theologies such as the “New Divinity” (or Hopkinsianism, after Samuel Hopkins…or Edwardean Divinity after Jonathan Edwards), which had determined that Calvinism when properly understood could not but lead to a strong zeal to reach the lost with the love of Christ. While some of the views may be debated within Calvinism (Edwards held a more “governmental” view of the Atonement than the stereotypical Calvinist you seek to prop up), history has shown Calvinism to have done just that. Men and women, Calvinists, giving up what they have to reach out with the love of Jesus Christ to the lost. Adoniram Judson came from this school of thought.
I do not read Augustine's writing....I read scripture.
What I'm hearing Jon is God only wins checkers because he moves his pieces for you.
God doesn't need to know the future or touch one thing. He can beat you in checkers with one piece, blindfolded.
He can create people with free will. Right off the bat your idea of God is less educated because you impose too many limitations to omnipotence just because the "power" would not work for you.
God shows up at your house to move your car, You peek behind him and ask......where is your tow truck? Calvinism tries to explain with primitive selfish human motives.
He damns folks for his "GLORY", ie to show off. Flaunt like a foolish child.
God is not a kid, doesn't need to show off, and only evil would at someone else's expense.
*** Post has been edited by JonC to remove assertions defining what another member believes and off topic comments.
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In terms of free will (the topic we are discussing here), I agree that God created men with free will. What I deny is the libertarian definition of free will because I think it foolish.
I do not know why you cannot grasp the concepts we are discussing here, but the point I have been trying to get you to understand is men are condemned for their sin as they freely (of their own accord) choose to "reject the Light."
God does not win because he manipulates the game. God is Victor because he is God. Your mistake is that you envision God to be man.
I do not know any other way to explain it to you except to once again say that you oppose a Calvinism of your own making.
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'Tis very true, that God requires nothing of us as a condition of eternal life but what is in our own power; and yet 'tis very true at the same time, that 'tis an utter impossibility that ever man should do what is necessary in order to salvation, nor do the least towards it, without the almighty operation of the Holy Spirit of God, yea, except everything be entirely wrought by the Spirit of God. True and saving faith in Christ is not a thing out of the power of man, but infinitely easy. 'Tis entirely in a man's power to submit to Jesus Christ as a Savior, if he will; but the thing is, it never will be that he should will it, except God works it in him. To will it is to do it; [it] depends on a man's will and not on his power; and however easy the thing be, and however much in a man's power, 'tis an impossibility that he should ever do it except he wills it, because submission to Christ is a willing.
(Jonathan Edwards, The “Miscellanies” 71. Free Will.)
The problem is not that Calvinism denies that men act freely. The problem is that some men do not like what they would choose apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation.
So that all that men do in real religion is entirely their own act and yet every tittle is wrought by the Spirit of God. Neither do I contradict myself. By saying that all that men do in religion is entirely their own act, I mean that everything they do, they themselves do; which I suppose none will contradict: 'tis the exertion of their own powers. (Edwards, ibid)
The problem is that where Calvinism acknowledges both the will of God to freely work salvation in a man and the will of that man to freely believe, some brothers cannot accept that their own salvation was anything but an independent expression of themselves.
(Jonathan Edwards, The “Miscellanies” 71. Free Will.)
The problem is not that Calvinism denies that men act freely. The problem is that some men do not like what they would choose apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation.
So that all that men do in real religion is entirely their own act and yet every tittle is wrought by the Spirit of God. Neither do I contradict myself. By saying that all that men do in religion is entirely their own act, I mean that everything they do, they themselves do; which I suppose none will contradict: 'tis the exertion of their own powers. (Edwards, ibid)
The problem is that where Calvinism acknowledges both the will of God to freely work salvation in a man and the will of that man to freely believe, some brothers cannot accept that their own salvation was anything but an independent expression of themselves.
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First let me AGAIN state I'm not insisting what you believe, maybe you can help me make this my signature so I don't trip "assertions defining what another member believes".
Kind of shocked that rule exists, after all I've heard I worship Mary, statues, and believe works save a person...... I can go on and on.
Hey Look we agree, Libertarian free will is stupid. My opinion doesn't dictate God is Sovereign in choice of system.
Example in the beginning before God created anything I can claim a absolute determined system and that God is a universalist.
I can hold plenty of opinions of possibilities. What I don't do is jump the gun or go over God's head.
As Dumb as libertarian free will sounds to me, Does God have the capacity to enact this system?
God can decide EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING, up front we both agree.
God can decide not to decide <--- Some how alien concept for some of us.
GOD IS GOOD, source of all GOOD, billions goody good, nothing but God is good at everything.
God can teach anyone to be good themselves <--- Some how alien and impossible concept for some of us.
God can forgive EVERYTHING and everyone for all sins he wants, up front both agree
GOD can withhold mercy from who he wants <---Some how we ASSUME HE WILL.
"the point I have been trying to get you to understand is men are condemned for their sin as they freely (of their own accord) choose to "reject the Light."
Not a Calvinist, got it. <-joke
Please reconcile your statement with Irresistible grace. Also you said they sin by rejecting the light, this implies God wants all to be saved, correct?
Irresistible grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, ...
Sure. God's will is going to be accomplished (similar to a prayer many pray).
On another thread I used Spurgeon's explanation that the means God normally used is persuasion. A friend explains the gospel in a way that you never considered and you come to believe. Your logic seems to insist that when a person persuades another of a truth that person has somehow violated the other's will.
Irresistible Grace simply means that God's will is accomplished in the situation. It does not mean that God violates man's will.
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When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to time,
And help His own people to win.
The hornets persuaded them that it was best,
To go quickly, and not to go slow;
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
But He just made them willing to go.
Chorus
He does not compel us to go, No! No!
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.
If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce,
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, Oh No,!
They would not compel you' to go 'gainst your will,
But they'd just make you willing to go.
Chorus
When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright;
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.
But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I'm sure you all know;
He did not compel him to go 'gainst his will,
But He just made him willing to go.
Chorus
When Moses was sent to lead Israel out,
To Canaan's rich fruit-bearing land.
Resisting His Spirit they worshiped a calf,
But refused to obey God's Command.
God did not compel them to go to the land,
Which with wine, milk, and honey did flow,
But fed them on manna for forty long years,
'Till He got them all ready to go.
Chorus
When Balaam was sent to the Moabite king,
And wanted things run his own way,
His mule, ever faithful, spoke at the right time,
Made him willing God's Will to obey.
God can use any man, since He used Balaam's mule,
For He is Almighty you know;
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.
Chorus
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to time,
And help His own people to win.
The hornets persuaded them that it was best,
To go quickly, and not to go slow;
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
But He just made them willing to go.
Chorus
He does not compel us to go, No! No!
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.
If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce,
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, Oh No,!
They would not compel you' to go 'gainst your will,
But they'd just make you willing to go.
Chorus
When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright;
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.
But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I'm sure you all know;
He did not compel him to go 'gainst his will,
But He just made him willing to go.
Chorus
When Moses was sent to lead Israel out,
To Canaan's rich fruit-bearing land.
Resisting His Spirit they worshiped a calf,
But refused to obey God's Command.
God did not compel them to go to the land,
Which with wine, milk, and honey did flow,
But fed them on manna for forty long years,
'Till He got them all ready to go.
Chorus
When Balaam was sent to the Moabite king,
And wanted things run his own way,
His mule, ever faithful, spoke at the right time,
Made him willing God's Will to obey.
God can use any man, since He used Balaam's mule,
For He is Almighty you know;
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.
Chorus