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Featured If God Never decreed/ordained the Fall...

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 25, 2017.

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Would Man have fallen?

  1. Most certainly

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  2. No

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%

  3. I don't know

    0 vote(s)
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  4. It is impossible to know

    0 vote(s)
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  5. I don't care

    0 vote(s)
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  6. He never ordained the Fall in the first place.

    4 vote(s)
    80.0%
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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Odd. You have a serious conundrum on your hands.
     
    #161 MennoSota, Jan 26, 2017
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God knows all that will ever happens, But He did not derterined to directly cause all that happened!!
    He predestins the elect, but the Lost He allows thei lost state to continue...
     
    #162 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God alrerady has all things right now planned out for hsitory, so whtever will occur in His sovereignity...
     
    #163 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, butthat he already knew they would do tht, ad permitted them to exrecise adecision and choice, saway He allowed Terrorist to take down Towers.
     
    #164 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I have never seen so much double-speak and obfuscation in one thread in my entire life.
     
    #165 InTheLight, Jan 26, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    From our point of view there can be the one that actually did happen, from viewpoint of God, he knows all possible outcomes!
     
    #166 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  7. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    If the outcome is already known/decreed, there is only one possible outcome.
     
    #167 StefanM, Jan 26, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Things such as the Cross are predestined, must happn, an other thingswill happen and God knows anoutthem and allows them t happen. Bein soverign means tha He can freely choice to stop anything as He deems shoul do such at any time.
     
    #168 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, we are stuck in time, God is not....
     
    #169 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He already had predestined an dtermined tha the death of Jesus wouldb the answer to the Fall. Wether He did that before/afte the Fall is a Cal in house debte!
     
    #170 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those whom God foreknew in Romas 8 infers more than jut Him knowing wo are saved, he knew that because he chose them to get saved!
     
    #171 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Its in the Greek text....
     
    #172 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Netter example would be all people decied freely to jump off building, but God decided to send a lader dow fo some, and the rest rejected that help ad just jumped!
     
    #173 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not really, as DoublePredestination might be in Calvin/Benza, but not in heBible!
     
    #174 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  15. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    How do you get the predestination stated in Ephesians 1 for the elect without having that same predestination for those who are not elect?

    In fact, the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Unless God intervenes we are all predestined to eternal hell. That's very much biblical. Those for whom God chooses redemption and adoption have that original destination changed by God's merciful choice.

    It is inconceivable that predestination is only for the elect and not for the damned. You are ignoring logic and the Bible.
     
    #175 MennoSota, Jan 26, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not understand your question. Do I believe that everything is preordained? Yes. Ordination does not mean that God causes it, but that it occurs within God's providential reign. Even those things that God did not cause (Adam's sin, for example) were preordained (this is why Arminianism holds that the Fall was "ordained" rather than "decreed"). But men are also free to choose their "path". By the way, Calvinism itself has never denied human free agency. In fact, the Canons of Dort affirm the free agency of men.

    Here is where we agree:
    1. Men choose freely
    2. God made man a free agent so that He could love God willingly
    3. Men never come to God unwillingly, they come because this is their desire (I'd add, their utmost desire)

    Here is where I think we may disagree:

    I believe that God is omniscient and knew before Creation that man would sin. God, knowing this, of his own free spoke the universe into existence. God knew that if Adam was put in the Garden Adam would sin. But it was God's will to plant a Garden and place Adam there. And this is what God did. God was not surprised when Adam sinned. It was what God knew would happen (I believe in divine omniscience...that God is all knowing). But Adam's sin came from Adam when he was tempted by his own lusts, and this gave birth to sin. Adam acted freely to sin, but God could have (if it was his desire) prevented Adam from sinning.
     
    #176 JonC, Jan 26, 2017
  17. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Possibilities only exist in time.
     
    #177 StefanM, Jan 26, 2017
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Then "man up" and point out what you see as contradictory and obfuscation. Inquiring minds are on edge to know :D.
     
    #178 JonC, Jan 26, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The bible states that we are predestined to Heaven by God, but those lost to Hell God permits them, He permits them to go to Hell due to Him predestinate the end result but not directly sending them there Himself!
    Nonelost can say God forced/caused me to go there!
     
    #179 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. No butt hat. Us baptists are easily offended. :)
     
    #180 JonC, Jan 26, 2017
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