If God Never decreed/ordained the Fall...

[MennoSota]

I hold to single Predestination, just towards theelect, NOT double Predestinations towards the Lost!

Odd. You have a serious conundrum on your hands.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't follow your reasoning.

Since God knows all that will happen, everything that happens is therefore predetermined?

Predetermined necessarily implies a 'predeterminer'. Who/what is this predeterminer?

God knows all that will ever happens, But He did not derterined to directly cause all that happened!!
He predestins the elect, but the Lost He allows thei lost state to continue...

 

[Yeshua1]

Meaning either God can't foreknow contingencies or contingencies don't exist,right?

God alrerady has all things right now planned out for hsitory, so whtever will occur in His sovereignity...

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, thank you.

Would you say God predetermined 200 Americans to jump to their deaths off WTC?

No, butthat he already knew they would do tht, ad permitted them to exrecise adecision and choice, saway He allowed Terrorist to take down Towers.

 

[InTheLight]

I have never seen so much double-speak and obfuscation in one thread in my entire life.

 

[Yeshua1]

BUT, if the events are certain, then it is also certain that they cannot fail to occur, and there also can be no alternative event.

From our point of view there can be the one that actually did happen, from viewpoint of God, he knows all possible outcomes!

 

[StefanM]

From ourpoint of ciew tere can bethe one tat actually di happen, from viewpoint of God, he knos all possible outcomes!

If the outcome is already known/decreed, there is only one possible outcome.

 

[Yeshua1]

Foreknowledge only requires certainty of events and not necessitation.

'It will be' does not mean 'it has to be'

Things such as the Cross are predestined, must happn, an other thingswill happen and God knows anoutthem and allows them t happen. Bein soverign means tha He can freely choice to stop anything as He deems shoul do such at any time.

 

[Yeshua1]

If the outcome is already known/decreed, there is only one possible outcome.

Again, we are stuck in time, God is not....

 

[Yeshua1]

You are welcome.

I believe that the events of the WTC were known by God as something that would occur in Creation, and God still created man. Not only that, I believe that Jesus, through Whom all things were made, knew of the Cross before Creation itself. And I believe God knew He would willingly send His Son as a propitiation for man's sin before Adam was even in the Garden.

He already had predestined an dtermined tha the death of Jesus wouldb the answer to the Fall. Wether He did that before/afte the Fall is a Cal in house debte!

 

[Yeshua1]

@StefanM,
What's so difficult in conceding that foreknowledge (possessing knowledge) of future events simply means knowing what will be, and from this it does not necessarily follow it has to be?

What's the basis for the logical leap from 'it will be' to 'it has to be'?

Those whom God foreknew in Romas 8 infers more than jut Him knowing wo are saved, he knew that because he chose them to get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

I would not wish to debate the 'biblical usage of foreknowledge' on this thread so I won't ask for evidence of your assertion

Its in the Greek text....

 

[Yeshua1]

Distinction without a difference.

If you have two kids drowning in a pool, and you have everything you need to save both of them but choose to only save one, there's no difference in saying you didn't actively choose to save the other or in saying you actively chose to leave him there. The effect is the same.

Netter example would be all people decied freely to jump off building, but God decided to send a lader dow fo some, and the rest rejected that help ad just jumped!

 

[Yeshua1]

Odd. You have a serious conundrum on your hands.

Not really, as DoublePredestination might be in Calvin/Benza, but not in heBible!

 

[MennoSota]

Not really, as DoublePredestination might be in Calvin/Benza, but not in heBible!

How do you get the predestination stated in Ephesians 1 for the elect without having that same predestination for those who are not elect?

In fact, the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Unless God intervenes we are all predestined to eternal hell. That's very much biblical. Those for whom God chooses redemption and adoption have that original destination changed by God's merciful choice.

It is inconceivable that predestination is only for the elect and not for the damned. You are ignoring logic and the Bible.

 

[JonC]

Permissive will as I understand it is God allowing men to sin. This idea does not account for the Law. Since the Laws were given for man to live by. The Law is God's will and it isn't permissive. The Law is God's restriction on sin. It means He does not allow sin. Sin does not agree with God's will. How men can see this as permissive doesn't make sense to me. It places the blame for sin on God.
Satan fell to the earth bringing sin in to the world by Satans will

God made man a free agent so that He could Love God willingly and Love his fellow man willingly

God does not allow man to come to Him He invites them to come because they want to.

Of course not. But the Jews did not Kill our Lord He laid down His life by His own will. The Jews sinned because of false accusations, lustful desire for Christ ti die, and willing stupidity.



I cannot show you this because it does not exist. I do not believe man is completely controlled by God except in a limited way. Man is a free agent to choose which path to follow.

God's will, will be done. However what specifically do you believe is God's will. Do you believe as the Calvinist do in that every act done by man is preordained by God?. Or do you believe man is a free agent able to choose his own path?
If man is unable to choose his own path then men are not responsible for His sin. Men do not sin because they were appointed to.
MB

I do not understand your question. Do I believe that everything is preordained? Yes. Ordination does not mean that God causes it, but that it occurs within God's providential reign. Even those things that God did not cause (Adam's sin, for example) were preordained (this is why Arminianism holds that the Fall was "ordained" rather than "decreed"). But men are also free to choose their "path". By the way, Calvinism itself has never denied human free agency. In fact, the Canons of Dort affirm the free agency of men.

Here is where we agree:
1. Men choose freely
2. God made man a free agent so that He could love God willingly
3. Men never come to God unwillingly, they come because this is their desire (I'd add, their utmost desire)

Here is where I think we may disagree:

I believe that God is omniscient and knew before Creation that man would sin. God, knowing this, of his own free spoke the universe into existence. God knew that if Adam was put in the Garden Adam would sin. But it was God's will to plant a Garden and place Adam there. And this is what God did. God was not surprised when Adam sinned. It was what God knew would happen (I believe in divine omniscience...that God is all knowing). But Adam's sin came from Adam when he was tempted by his own lusts, and this gave birth to sin. Adam acted freely to sin, but God could have (if it was his desire) prevented Adam from sinning.

 

[StefanM]

Again, we are stuck in time, God is not....

Possibilities only exist in time.

 

[JonC]

I have never seen so much double-speak and obfuscation in one thread in my entire life.

Then "man up" and point out what you see as contradictory and obfuscation. Inquiring minds are on edge to know .

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you get the predestination stated in Ephesians 1 for the elect without having that same predestination for those who are not elect?

In fact, the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Unless God intervenes we are all predestined to eternal hell. That's very much biblical. Those for whom God chooses redemption and adoption have that original destination changed by God's merciful choice.

It is inconceivable that predestination is only for the elect and not for the damned. You are ignoring logic and the Bible.

The bible states that we are predestined to Heaven by God, but those lost to Hell God permits them, He permits them to go to Hell due to Him predestinate the end result but not directly sending them there Himself!
Nonelost can say God forced/caused me to go there!

 

[JonC]

No, butthat he already knew they would do tht, ad permitted them to exrecise adecision and choice, saway He allowed Terrorist to take down Towers.

Yes. No butt hat. Us baptists are easily offended.