If God Never decreed/ordained the Fall...

[Agent47]

@StefanM,
What's so difficult in conceding that foreknowledge (possessing knowledge) of future events simply means knowing what will be, and from this it does not necessarily follow it has to be?

What's the basis for the logical leap from 'it will be' to 'it has to be'?

 

[JonC]

Again, thank you.

Would you say God predetermined 200 Americans to jump to their deaths off WTC?

You are welcome.

I believe that the events of the WTC were known by God as something that would occur in Creation, and God still created man. Not only that, I believe that Jesus, through Whom all things were made, knew of the Cross before Creation itself. And I believe God knew He would willingly send His Son as a propitiation for man's sin before Adam was even in the Garden.

 

[StefanM]

@StefanM,
What's so difficult in conceding that foreknowledge (possessing knowledge) of future events simply means knowing what will be, and from this it does not necessarily follow it has to be?

What's the basis for the logical leap from 'it will be' to 'it has to be'?

Because the knowledge would exist in God's mind.

If God's knowledge is infallible and complete, it is impossible for any such knowledge to be false. Because the knowledge can't be false, there is no other possibility than for the foreseen events to occur.

 

[Iconoclast]

Foreknowledge only requires certainty of events and not necessitation.

'It will be' does not mean 'it has to be'

That is not the biblical usage of Foreknowledge.
God has foreknowledge of the elect as fallen sinners who He fully conforms to the Son at glorification......the events of Providence flow from the decree

 

[Agent47]

You are welcome.

I believe that the events of the WTC were known by God

They were predetermined?

 

[Agent47]

That is not the biblical usage of Foreknowledge.
God has foreknowledge of the elect as fallen sinners who He fully conforms to the Son at glorification......the events of Providence flow from the decree

I would not wish to debate the 'biblical usage of foreknowledge' on this thread so I won't ask for evidence of your assertion

 

[Agent47]

Because the knowledge would exist in God's mind.

If God's knowledge is infallible and complete, it is impossible for any such knowledge to be false. Because the knowledge can't be false, there is no other possibility than for the foreseen events to occur.

This is tautology or circular reasoning.

Let's explore fatalism a bit. Whatever will happen will happen. In fact it must happen...can't possibly be otherwise.

Without any relation to foreknowledge, one can still arrive at 'what will be has to be'

Possession of perfect future knowledge does not add to or deduct the certainty of the future. So it does not follow that because God knows perfectly the future,not only must the future roll out as he knows it, he determines the future with decrees to realize what He knows

 

[MB]

What an odd thing to say. Why would I be upset?

You said specifically that “permissive will lives in the imagination of Calvinists” when the truth of the matter is many Calvinists deny permissive will all together. Most of the time the topic arises when discussing free-will theology (the idea that God allows things to happen without his direct control). I apparently misjudged your comments as I thought you advocated that men sinned of their own accord (James 1:13-15), but I also thought you believed Scripture when it states God's purpose will be accomplished (Isaiah 14,46, 55, Proverbs 19; Haggai 2; Ephesians 1; Hebrews 2; Romans 9....just to name a few).

Permissive will as I understand it is God allowing men to sin. This idea does not account for the Law. Since the Laws were given for man to live by. The Law is God's will and it isn't permissive. The Law is God's restriction on sin. It means He does not allow sin. Sin does not agree with God's will. How men can see this as permissive doesn't make sense to me. It places the blame for sin on God.
Satan fell to the earth bringing sin in to the world by Satans will

God made man a free agent so that He could Love God willingly and Love his fellow man willingly

God does not allow man to come to Him He invites them to come because they want to.

Can I prove that permissive will exists? YES, absolutely.

Paul teaches us that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purposes. Peter tells us that this included the crucifixion of Jesus at the hands of the Jews, yet the Jews remained responsible for their own actions. God did not take away their free will and force them to sin.

Of course not. But the Jews did not Kill our Lord He laid down His life by His own will. The Jews sinned because of false accusations, lustful desire for Christ ti die, and willing stupidity.

Now, your turn. And since we are talking about "permissive will" you have two ways to prove me wrong (either will do):

1. Show me in Scripture where the plans and thoughts of man is shown to be controlled directly by God so that men have no freedom in choosing OR

I cannot show you this because it does not exist. I do not believe man is completely controlled by God except in a limited way. Man is a free agent to choose which path to follow.

2. Prove via Scripture that God’s counsel will not stand, that he will not accomplish all of he has purposed.

God's will, will be done. However what specifically do you believe is God's will. Do you believe as the Calvinist do in that every act done by man is preordained by God?. Or do you believe man is a free agent able to choose his own path?
If man is unable to choose his own path then men are not responsible for His sin. Men do not sin because they were appointed to.
MB

 

[JonC]

They were predetermined?

As what would occur in Creation, yes. They were known by God to be events that would occur even before Creation.

In other words, God knew that these events would be a part of the world he was creating and God still created that world. This could have been prevented if God decided not to create man (or to create man without a will of his own....But that wouldn't be "man").

I see two logical conclusion. Either God knows all things and all things are predetermined to exist in Creation (God's knowledge is not deficient), or God does not know all things but reacts to events as they occur (Open Theism).

 

[Iconoclast]

I would not wish to debate the 'biblical usage of foreknowledge' on this thread so I won't ask for evidence of your assertion

romans8:29 is clear.
There is no debate as the cross is at the center of all revelation and the redemptive work of God, perfectly accomplished.
There is no speculation to be had here. there is only what is....and we are all moving toward the decreed eternal state.....as lost in Adam going into second death, or alive in Christ going to glorification...
No second chance,no do over, no philosophical loopholes.....just God as all in all.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is laughable. You haven't proven it does exist yet you want me to prove it doesn't
If you can't show it to me in scripture permissive will does not exist with God.
Permissive will has no purpose when men are free to choose whom they will follow. Free to choose to sin. free to choose to follow God. The free gift of Salvation cannot be free with out a choice to choose it. If we have no choice there is no point in it's very discussion. There is no point in faith, worship, or Love of our fellow man.
If I created a robot and programed it to do things wrong. The robot would not be responsible I would be because, I created it to do so.
God doesn't allow sin He forbids it, with His Law. His Law is proof that God is not willing that men sin. To say the opposite is foolishness.
MB

There is no loner free ill to sinnrs though, as now restricted by the boundaries oftheir sn natures, s cannot freely do all things!

 

[Yeshua1]

I see the Bible presenting God as the author of sin because he intentionally created a scenario for sin to occur.

How so? God created Adam morally perfect, and gae him real free will as act of love?

 

[Yeshua1]

As what would occur in Creation, yes. They were known by God to be events that would occur even before Creation.

In other words, God knew that these events would be a part of the world he was creating and God still created that world. This could have been prevented if God decided not to create man (or to create man without a will of his own....But that wouldn't be "man").

I see two logical conclusion. Either God knows all things and all things are predetermined to exist in Creation (God's knowledge is not deficient), or God does not know all things but reacts to events as they occur (Open Theism).

Some here seem to be aiming towards Open Theisitic viewpoint! AmdermissiveWill is God allowing for indirect agents tomae choices/deciions for His purpose, such in death of Christ, but he still remains in comtrol!

 

[MB]

There is no loner free ill to sinnrs though, as now restricted by the boundaries oftheir sn natures, s cannot freely do all things!

I could not disagree more. If the freedom to choose which path to follow is gone. Then why were we asked to choose who to follow?. The gods of the Amorites or the God of creation.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Freedom to choose is in scripture even though you do not wish to agree.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

No. What God decrees is what occurs by God's command. What is permitted occurs because God allows it.

Scripture teaches that God has a will, design, plan, purpose for Creation and that God actively causes things in accord with this will. God's purposes will be accomplished because God will accomplish them.

At the same time, men are free agents in Creation. Men make their plans, freely. God does not command man to sin. Instead God permits men to freely choose. If nothing is decreed then everything is happenstance and human invention. If nothing is permitted, then human free agency does not exist.

All things fall into God's purposes, but not all things are necessary even if certain. Sin is never necessary, but all that occurs is certain (God knew them before they came to pass and was willing that they occur).

What is decreed and purposed (what God actively wills and those things that are permitted as a result of God's active will) will certainly occur. Other things are possibilities that never materialize (God was unwilling to permit something to occur, for example).

All men can be saved. This is a possibility Christ secured on the Cross. But not all men will be saved. And this is a certainty because God knew who would and wold not believe before the earth was ever formed. Yet still, God created those who he knew were destined to destruction. Does this mean God decreed their condemnation?

Calvinist will normally say "no". God chose out of fallen man some to save.

I say "yes", because God decreed the Fall (not Adam's sin, but that the fall should occur). And this condemnation applies to all men for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I hope this helps explain my position. I eagerly await your answer as well.

I hold to single Predestination, just towards theelect, NOT double Predestinations towards the Lost!

 

[Yeshua1]

I could not disagree more. If the freedom to choose which path to follow is gone. Then why were we asked to choose who to follow?. The gods of the Amorites or the God of creation.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Freedom to choose is in scripture even though you do not wish to agree.
MB

Sin nature dos not allow for full freedom anymore!

 

[StefanM]

This is tautology or circular reasoning.

Let's explore fatalism a bit. Whatever will happen will happen. In fact it must happen...can't possibly be otherwise.

Without any relation to foreknowledge, one can still arrive at 'what will be has to be'

Possession of perfect future knowledge does not add to or deduct the certainty of the future. So it does not follow that because God knows perfectly the future,not only must the future roll out as he knows it, he determines the future with decrees to realize what He knows

We'll just have to disagree on the circular reasoning. I think the problem is inherent in the idea of exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge, so some seemingly circular logic is unavoidable.

But even if you ground the idea of knowing the future in decrees, it's still going to create the same problem. If a certain future is decreed and will certainly occur, then all other possible futures are excluded.

 

[StefanM]

I hold to single Predestination, just towards theelect, NOT double Predestinations towards the Lost!

Distinction without a difference.

If you have two kids drowning in a pool, and you have everything you need to save both of them but choose to only save one, there's no difference in saying you didn't actively choose to save the other or in saying you actively chose to leave him there. The effect is the same.

 

[StefanM]

How so? God created Adam morally perfect, and gae him real free will as act of love?

He gave him a serpent that would tempt him and a tree that would tempt him, and he supposedly did so with perfect foreknowledge of what the outcome would be. That's a set up.

 

[MennoSota]

I could not disagree more. If the freedom to choose which path to follow is gone. Then why were we asked to choose who to follow?. The gods of the Amorites or the God of creation.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Freedom to choose is in scripture even though you do not wish to agree.
MB

Your verse, at the end of Joshua, is in relation to the Mosaic covenant, not in relation to redemption.

Joshua 24:19,20
Then Joshua warned the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you abandon the LORD and serve other gods, he will turn against you and destroy you, even though he has been so good to you."

Joshua's call for choice has nothing to do with God's grace in redemption. It is foolish for you to invoke Joshua 24:15 as a free will verse because it is not even referencing salvation. Context is everything.