Calvin on "total depravity"

[AndThisGospel]

Jesus died that doesn't mean he is evil..

This needs clarification. Please read Hebrews 10:5

"Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: 'Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.'"

Now, let's get specific by replacing the pronouns:

"Therefore, when He [Son of God] came into the world, He [Son of God] said: 'Sacrifice and offering You [God the Father] did not desire, but a body You [God the Father] have prepared for Me [God the Son].'"

Who is God the Son?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

God the Son has no beginning and has no end. He is "the Alpha and the Omega". He is self-existing and lastly "God is Spirit". John 4:24

About 2000 years ago God the Father prepared "a body" for God the Son. At the incarnation that body was united to God the Son.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son (i.e., God the Son), born of a woman, born under the law...."

The body that was "born of a women" belonged to our humanity. The question is what type of humanity? The humanity that existed in Adam before the fall or after?

 

[MennoSota]

Are you BORN AGAIN or BORN ONCE?

Does a human have a body, soul and spirit or is a human only made of flesh?

 

[AndThisGospel]

Does a human have a body, soul and spirit or is a human only made of flesh?

You need to understand what Paul means by "flesh". If you look at the Greek word for "flesh", which is Sarx, Strong's given this definition:

sarx: flesh
Original Word: σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: sarx
Phonetic Spelling: (sarx)
Short Definition: flesh, body
Definition: flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

 

[MennoSota]

You need to understand what Paul means by "flesh". If you look at the Greek word for "flesh", which is Sarx, Strong's given this definition:

sarx: flesh
Original Word: σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: sarx
Phonetic Spelling: (sarx)
Short Definition: flesh, body
Definition: flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

Does a human have just a body or is there a body, soul and spirit?

Which of these three is Paul referring to when he tells the elect in Ephesus that they were once dead in their trespasses and sins?

 

[AndThisGospel]

Does a human have just a body or is there a body, soul and spirit?

We are made of three parts, body, soul & spirit. All these components are interdependent. One fails, they all fail.

Which of these three is Paul referring to when he tells the elect in Ephesus that they were once dead in their trespasses and sins?

Let's look at the details:

Eph 2:3 "Among them (i.e., "children of wrath") we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Before Christ...before the "new birth" the flesh (human nature) and the mind were in complete harmony. What our fallen natures desired the mind wanted too....

After the new birth, the mind is no longer in harmony with the desires of the flesh. Paul talks about this in Romans 7:22-23

22 "For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man (i.e, the born again mind), 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind...."

Here's the new birth in a nutshell: "...be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom 12:2

The soul is essentially our minds, which includes the ability to think and learn and choose, our ideals, love, hate, feelings, discernment, etc.

Paul, then, is referring to our minds....

 

[MennoSota]

We are made of three parts, body, soul & spirit. All these components are interdependent. One fails, they all fail.



Let's look at the details:

Eph 2:3 "Among them (i.e., "children of wrath") we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Before Christ...before the "new birth" the flesh (human nature) and the mind were in complete harmony. What our fallen natures desired the mind wanted too....

After the new birth, the mind is no longer in harmony with the desires of the flesh. Paul talks about this in Romans 7:22-23

22 "For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man (i.e, the born again mind), 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind...."

Here's the new birth in a nutshell: "...be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Rom 12:2

The soul is essentially our minds, which includes the ability to think and learn and choose, our ideals, love, hate, feelings, discernment, etc.

Paul, then, is referring to our minds....

...and the spirit is dead...until God makes it alive?

Or don't you believe in the spirit?

Your idea of the soul is really just the physical function of the mind. From what I can discern, you don't believe a soul or spirit exists in a human. If so, that would make your view no different than an atheist as the only thing existing would be matter.

 

[AndThisGospel]

...and the spirit is dead...until God makes it alive? Or don't you believe in the spirit?

Oh, now you've switched over to the spirit....

Your idea of the soul is really just the physical function of the mind.

Physical function of the mind? What are you trying to say?

 

[MennoSota]

Oh, now you've switched over to the spirit....



Physical function of the mind? What are you trying to say?

I have asked you three times if a human has a body, a soul and a spirit. You have not answered the question.
Your biblical exegesis seems to only apply to the body.

 

[AndThisGospel]

I have asked you three times if a human has a body, a soul and a spirit. You have not answered the question.

Then you need glasses:

Here's what I said in post # 65

We are made of three parts, body, soul & spirit. All these components are interdependent. One fails, they all fail.

 

[MennoSota]

Then you need glasses:

Here's what I said in post # 65

You believe in both. Good.

You need to grasp that the spirit is dead in sin until God makes it alive in Christ.
Your attempt to connect John 3:16 to Ephesians 2 is simply poor exegesis.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Your attempt to connect John 3:16 to Ephesians 2 is simply poor exegesis.

I didn't attempt to connect those two...

 

[MennoSota]

I didn't attempt to connect those two...

Sorry, perhaps it was the other person I am talking to in this thread. [emoji41] [emoji57]

 

[AndThisGospel]

You need to grasp that the spirit is dead in sin until God makes it alive in Christ..

I believe you are referring to Romans 8:10

"If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."

According to Romans 7:23, "the law of sin"..."is in the members" of our bodies. The body is dead because of indwelling sin, yet the human spirit has been made spiritually alive by God's Spirit.

That infers before conversion (the new birth) our "spirits" were also dead, spiritually speaking.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Before conversion, our spirit is not indwelt by God’s Spirit. Except for the conviction the Holy Spirit brings to us from without, we can hardly feel our spirit’s function in the life. Therefore, prior to the new birth, we are dominated by the soul, or mind, and its preoccupation with self — or by the body with its lusts. At conversion, our spirit is made alive because the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us. Our spirit becomes God’s dwelling place and the seat of His will in our lives.

 

[Yeshua1]

You really need to do your homework before making such statements. Gen 1:27 is before sin entered the human race. Try again...

God still creates all human in His image, as that is way He proscribed he death penalty for murder AFTER the Fall, as those killing such killed ones made in iamgeof God still! The Image has been marred, not destroyed!

 

[Yeshua1]

What, is this the MennoSota Version?

Let's look at the NASB:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus....

1. Nothing about "the elect".
2. Before you knew Christ, i.e., when you were spiritually dead in sin, God put you into Christ and made you spiritually alive. You, the individual, weren't even born yet. How, then, could God have made you spiritually alive with Christ?
3. And God also raised you up together with Christ and took you to heaven "in Christ". Again, you weren't even born yet. How, then, could God have taken you to heaven "in Christ"?

You do know Pal was referring to theelect of God here, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you "holy and blameless" before God?

Before answering keep these verses in mind: 1 John 1:8 & Romans 3:10

In theLord Jesu, washed in His blood, yes I am!

 

[Yeshua1]

Anyway, you still haven't explained to me how you can be "in Christ" (and He is in heaven) and here too? Either you know or your don't know. I believe it is the latter.

God sted th rignow we are already seated in high places in Christ, so yourproblem is not knowing the scriptures on how God views this!

 

[Yeshua1]

This needs clarification. Please read Hebrews 10:5

"Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: 'Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.'"

Now, let's get specific by replacing the pronouns:

"Therefore, when He [Son of God] came into the world, He [Son of God] said: 'Sacrifice and offering You [God the Father] did not desire, but a body You [God the Father] have prepared for Me [God the Son].'"

Who is God the Son?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

God the Son has no beginning and has no end. He is "the Alpha and the Omega". He is self-existing and lastly "God is Spirit". John 4:24

About 2000 years ago God the Father prepared "a body" for God the Son. At the incarnation that body was united to God the Son.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son (i.e., God the Son), born of a woman, born under the law...."

The body that was "born of a women" belonged to our humanity. The question is what type of humanity? The humanity that existed in Adam before the fall or after?

Via te Holy Spirit Virgin Birth, same sinless natured Humanity as Adam had before the Fall!

 

[AndThisGospel]

The Image has been marred, not destroyed!

Only in the sense we have agape, but that agape has been bent back to self by the fall. Instead of loving our neighbors unconditionally...in stead of living solely for their prosperity, we now unconditionally love ourselves. This u-turn agape is Satan's invention.