Featured Partial preterism

The Great Tribulation period has NOT yet happened in history, as Jesus stated would be a time like NEVER before, and that all life itself might be destroyed, and that His second coming would avert yhat from happening. AD 70 was NOT that event!

 

It most certainly was the end of the first covenant age. A very violent ending with 'great wrath unto this people'.

Yes, His coming in wrath in the AD66-70 civil war/rebellion was His 'second coming' to the Jews.

That's at the 'final coming' of 1 Cor 15.

I affirm that the BIBLICAL 'second coming' has occurred already and the resurrection occurs at the 'final coming'.

 

Yes. He did indeed say that, along with a timeline for it's fulfillment:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished.
Mk 13

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

 

Jesus brings salvation to national Israel at His second coming though!

 

You will see. I don't like labels as once a label is applied, we are defined by the label, rather than what we teach.

 

Please quote reference.

 

Romans , all Israel shall be saved

 

In Jesus' Olivet prophecy, he lists the events leading up to the destruction that would fall on "this generation."Mat. 24:34

24:35 begins a further, general prophecy, when heaven and earth will pass away. After the prophesied destruction, there are no specific warnings. Watch, pray, be faithful, and be ready.

But, 24:29-31 teach dramatic events that need to be addressed.

 

There are 16 chapters in Romans.
When? Who is the deliverer promised by Isaiah?
Rom. 15 comes after Rom. 11.

 

The second coming will indeed be as His departure. It will be physical, visible and witnessed. But witnessed not by just a few, but by all mankind. Revelation 1:7. Read in conjunction with John 5:28.

In other words, you have no refutation for my interpretation but resort to bluster and insult. Par for the course.
That judgement came upon Jerusalem in AD 70 is not at issue. That the Lord Jesus Christ returned personally to inflict it you have not even begun to prove.

 

Is that Romans 11, the chapter that says gentiles replaced Jews? (Jews cut off, gentiles grafted on)

Romans 11 doesn't say anything about a second coming, nor a particular generation of Jews. Yet, form "all Israel shall be saved" you get, "At the second coming Jesus will save a whole generation of Jews." Do you know what you believe? Why do you quote a verse "all Israel" instead of speaking in your own words and understanding?

Your naked quoting of verses only shows me:

1) Bible verse
2) ?
3) Dispensationalism

Paul was speaking of Believers under the Old Covenant, not Jews today. Believers are Israel, and all of them will be saved. Every generation of them. Jews today are not Israel and none of them will be saved in their condition of being Jews.

 

What time before 70 AD was as bad for Israel as the Jewish wars?

In the Olivet discourse, I see nothing about his coming averting, stopping, the tribulation. And, as a Dispensationalist, don't you believe Jesus comes before the tribulation (and removes the church)? Maybe you mean at his third coming he would presumably stop the tribulation?

The Bible says God cuts short the tribulation, but that has nothing to do with Jesus coming.

Dispensationalism is a complete contradiction of the Bible (and therefor satanic). Dispensationalist apologists rattle off random verses out of context, often even partial verses, and claim those verses say something they don't say.

Jesus told his disciples that that temple would be destroyed and that they, his disciples, would be persecuted. And, that they should flee Judea when they see the abomination that causes desolation (which the sensible among us know to be the Roman armies). But, you tell us that Jesus told them another temple would be destroyed and that those persecuted in the tribulation would be non-believers and that Christians don't have to flee because they'll already be taken away.

 

Oh puhleeze, you can't even pinpoint the verse in that book where He actually sets foot on terra firma. I don't know Greek but I know how to render that passage:

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, EVEN they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the LAND shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

And I don't have to know Greek to know that "must shortly come to pass" and "I come quickly" and "the time is at hand" means just exactly that, and NOT thousands of years and still waiting.

 

Well OK then. Whether or not He touched earth, tell me anyone in AD 70 who saw the Lord Jesus Christ at all. And who in China, or even in Spain or Greece, was remotely aware at the time that the destruction of Jerusalem was taking place? The Philippian jailor probably wasn't aware the thing had happened for months afterwards.

Moreover, the Jews weren't expelled from Israel in AD70; that didn't happen for another 60 years or so after the Bar Cochba revolt in the time of the Emperor Hadrian.

 

I assure you, those He intended to recognize what was coming upon them did so. Josephus records numerous times that the Jews knew it was God's wrath upon them.

No matter, the smoke of her burning still goes up:

28 and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the Plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the land went up as the smoke of a furnace. Gen 19
8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11
9 And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived wantonly with her, shall weep and wail over her, when they look upon the smoke of her burning,
18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city? Rev 18

'The son of man in His day' exists now for all who have eyes to see ("Truly, I tell you emphatically, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."):

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. Mt 24

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

 

I don't know what you want me to do with those texts. They seem to fit an Amil understanding very well indeed. I'll just deal with a couple of them before I go to bed.

The kingdom of God did not arrive in AD 70. It came with the Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 1:15) and forceful people have been breaking into it ever since (Matthew 11:12). But it is an invisible kingdom and 'not of this world' (John 18:36) until the Lord returns visibly in glory.

That's exactly right. Nobody was saying 'Lo here!' or Lo, there' in AD 70, but if they had been the disciples would have been quite correct to ignore them, because when the Lord Jesus returns everybody is going to know about it.

Also, Babylon is still very much with us today. Jerusalem is described as Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8, but it does not fit the bill for Babylon because it did not fall in a single day (Daniel 5:30; Revelation 18:10 etc.). The siege of Jerusalem took some months. Also, Jerusalem is not a port (Revelation 18:17-18). The fall of Rome in AD 410 would fit Rev.18 much better in most respects.

 

Wow, that's some coincidence, eh?

You're also just as inconsistent as a Dispy:

15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel. Mk 1

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand. Rev 22

"At hand" can mean 'right now', or, it can mean 'thousands of years and still waiting', whichever one suits your fancy at the moment, right?

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

Just as the house of Saul was vanquished before the house of David took the kingdom, so it was with those corrupt keepers of the vineyard:

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Mt 21

You don't know what you're talking about. Israel was plagued with false prophets and false messiahs that divided the people and inflamed and incited the rebellion and the civil war that wrought the awful destruction the came upon that generation.

Where so? I guess the 'mystery' in 'Mystery Babylon' escapes you.

It's said of 'that generation' that murdered the Lord of glory:

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

It's said of 'Mystery Babylon':

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

There's FOUR entities in that verse, not just three:

8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11
2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.
10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!
18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev 18

Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem. Rev 11:8 is a 'pointer' to some remarkable similes.

Sigh. You resort to the literal with a lame attempt to refute the symbolic. As I said, the mystery of it all escapes you. The gist of what's being said is the 'suddenness' at which these things were to happen, i.e....

8 Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her.
10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rev 18

25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all:
30 after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away: and let him that is in the field likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot`s wife. Lu 17

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

 

Well, it could be worse. At least I'm not as inconsistent as a Preterist.

You need to understand Amillennialism. At the time that John wrote Revelation, these things were actually going on. The seven seals had been opened; the seven trumpets had begun to blow; the two witnesses were witnessing; Christians were being persecuted. And none of this changed in AD 70. Indeed, the 'wars and rumours of wars' have increased. The period between 31 BC and around 180 AD is called the Pax Romana because it was a time of unparalleled peace. The one exception was the period around 69 AD and the 'year of the four emperors.' But under Preterism, our Lord could not say, 'See to it that you are not alarmed......for the end is not yet' because the end was well and truly at hand!

This is fulfilled in the Transfiguration which immediately followed our Lords words (Matthew 17:1).

The destruction of Jerusalem was certainly the judgement of God on the Jews and Jerusalem, but note that it is not the son but the owner of the vineyard who comes to destroy the vinedressers.

One of us doesn't.

But no one claimed to have seen Jesus Christ, because He wasn't there. There is no record of anyone having seen Him. And did the false prophets and false messiahs stop after AD 70. Not in the least They've been going on ever since, exactly as the Lord Jesus said they would.

All these things were in the past. And yes, all those things did come upon Jerusalem, but.....

If this is supposed to refer to Jerusalem, it simply isn't true. Some years before AD 70, Nero was burning Christians to illuminate his gardens. This had nothing to do with Jerusalem. And did persecution of Christians cease after AD 70? No! It carried right on, as it does to this very day.

.

 

If there is one thing on which you and I are agreed it is that Revelation is symbolic and not to be taken literally. However, that does not mean that you can make the book into a wax nose and pummel into saying any old nonsense you like.

With these next several quotations you are dragging verses out of context and trying to strap them together to make them fit your system of interpretation. Bad exegesis!

You need to attach this sentence to verses 20-24.

This is speaking of our Lord's second coming at the end of the age. It speaks of suddenness- an overthrow reminiscent of that of Babylon.

This is speaking of AD 70. The revolt against Rome began in 66 AD, and it was obvious after a year or so that the Romans were going to win. The final siege took several months.

But if the whole point of Christ's return was to destroy Jerusalem, why would the Christians in Philippi have been looking forward to it so much? 'For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also earnestly wait for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able to subdue all things to Himself' (Philippians 3:20-21). What changed in respect of the Christians in Philippi as a result of the destruction of Jerusalem? There wasn't even a synagogue in Philippi (Acts 16:13), so what difference would it have made?

I have a pile of work to do for the Lord's day, so I won't be making any more posts for a few days.