Partial preterism

[Baptist Brother]

Well, it could be worse. At least I'm not as inconsistent as a Preterist.

You need to understand Amillennialism. At the time that John wrote Revelation, these things were actually going on. The seven seals had been opened; the seven trumpets had begun to blow; the two witnesses were witnessing; Christians were being persecuted. And none of this changed in AD 70. Indeed, the 'wars and rumours of wars' have increased. The period between 31 BC and around 180 AD is called the Pax Romana because it was a time of unparalleled peace. The one exception was the period around 69 AD and the 'year of the four emperors.' But under Preterism, our Lord could not say, 'See to it that you are not alarmed......for the end is not yet' because the end was well and truly at hand!

I know you're not a Dispisationalist.

Wars have not increased. There is less war today than 2000 years ago. There is less war today than 100 years ago. But, wars around the world are not relevant. Wars involving the Priestly Jews is what's relevant. Jewish acts of war upon the Romans lead to the Roman attack. Someone observed that Jews start all the wars. Well, they started the biggest war in the history of Judea, the one that destroyed Judea once and for all time. They started it theologically by killing Christ. They started it politically by murdering Romans.

People who babbling about 70 AD not being the worst war ever need to read Josephus's account of the Jewish wars. The war was so nasty that the Jews did as much damage to themselves as the Romans did. And, let's not forget, this is the war that destroyed Judea once and for all time. No war had done that before and no war will ever do that again. Was WWII was worse? Not in intensity, but only in size, and WWII didn't involve Judea, so it's not relevant.

One of the willful errors of Dispensationalists is believing the Tribulation is global. The Bible doesn't teach that it's global. Some people don't understand the meaning of the KJV's use of the word "world", a translation of the Hebrew word meaning age, as in the Temple age, the Jewish world, not the planet. The whole planet isn't relevant.

But no one claimed to have seen Jesus Christ, because He wasn't there. There is no record of anyone having seen Him.

"Coming" is a well-established figure of speech for judgement. See the Old Testament. See many veses in the New Testament. Another willful error by Dispenationalists is denying that "coming" is a figure of speech for judgement. (The verse in Acts about Jesus returning in the same way he was seen leaving is unrelated to the topics of the Olivet discourse and Revelation.)

And did the false prophets and false messiahs stop after AD 70. Not in the least They've been going on ever since, exactly as the Lord Jesus said they would.

Since 70 AD, or soon afterward, there haven been no more false messiahs presented to Priestly Jews. People claiming to be Jesus is irrelevant.

If this is supposed to refer to Jerusalem, it simply isn't true. Some years before AD 70, Nero was burning Christians to illuminate his gardens. This had nothing to do with Jerusalem. And did persecution of Christians cease after AD 70? No! It carried right on, as it does to this very day.

We're not told that persecution of Christians would cease after the end of the Temple.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, it could be worse. At least I'm not as inconsistent as a Preterist.

Explain this inconsistency of yours please. How does "at hand" in Mk 1:15 mean 'right now' but doesn't mean 'right now' in Rev 1:3 and Rev 22:10?

Surely, if you're any sort of student of the word that exercises their right to private judgement you've put some thought or meditation on it.

 

[Yeshua1]

If there is one thing on which you and I are agreed it is that Revelation is symbolic and not to be taken literally. However, that does not mean that you can make the book into a wax nose and pummel into saying any old nonsense you like.


With these next several quotations you are dragging verses out of context and trying to strap them together to make them fit your system of interpretation. Bad exegesis!

You need to attach this sentence to verses 20-24.

This is speaking of our Lord's second coming at the end of the age. It speaks of suddenness- an overthrow reminiscent of that of Babylon.

This is speaking of AD 70. The revolt against Rome began in 66 AD, and it was obvious after a year or so that the Romans were going to win. The final siege took several months.

But if the whole point of Christ's return was to destroy Jerusalem, why would the Christians in Philippi have been looking forward to it so much? 'For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also earnestly wait for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able to subdue all things to Himself' (Philippians 3:20-21). What changed in respect of the Christians in Philippi as a result of the destruction of Jerusalem? There wasn't even a synagogue in Philippi (Acts 16:13), so what difference would it have made?

I have a pile of work to do for the Lord's day, so I won't be making any more posts for a few days.

You and I disagree on the exact timin and evnts of the endtimes Brother, but we BOTH do agree that the Second Coming is yet to happen, that will be the time of the resurrection of the saints in physical/glorified sense, and to deny that is heresy!

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh puhleeze, you can't even pinpoint the verse in that book where He actually sets foot on terra firma. I don't know Greek but I know how to render that passage:

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, EVEN they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the LAND shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

And I don't have to know Greek to know that "must shortly come to pass" and "I come quickly" and "the time is at hand" means just exactly that, and NOT thousands of years and still waiting.

You do know that the term dos NOT mean something being done right now, but that when it all happen, will get down quickly? His second Comin event shall be quick, as we are all changed in twinkling of an eye, righ?

 

[kyredneck]

the two witnesses were witnessing; Christians were being persecuted

...and the significance of their dead bodies lying in the streets of JERUSALEM, i.e. Mystery Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, totally escapes you.

 

[Yeshua1]

I know you're not a Dispisationalist.

Wars have not increased. There is less war today than 2000 years ago. There is less war today than 100 years ago. But, wars around the world are not relevant. Wars involving the Priestly Jews is what's relevant. Jewish acts of war upon the Romans lead to the Roman attack. Someone observed that Jews start all the wars. Well, they started the biggest war in the history of Judea, the one that destroyed Judea once and for all time. They started it theologically by killing Christ. They started it politically by murdering Romans.

People who babbling about 70 AD not being the worst war ever need to read Josephus's account of the Jewish wars. The war was so nasty that the Jews did as much damage to themselves as the Romans did. And, let's not forget, this is the war that destroyed Judea once and for all time. No war had done that before and no war will ever do that again. Was WWII was worse? Not in intensity, but only in size, and WWII didn't involve Judea, so it's not relevant.

One of the willful errors of Dispensationalists is believing the Tribulation is global. The Bible doesn't teach that it's global. Some people don't understand the meaning of the KJV's use of the word "world", a translation of the Hebrew word meaning age, as in the Temple age, the Jewish world, not the planet. The whole planet isn't relevant.



"Coming" is a well-established figure of speech for judgement. See the Old Testament. See many veses in the New Testament. Another willful error by Dispenationalists is denying that "coming" is a figure of speech for judgement. (The verse in Acts about Jesus returning in the same way he was seen leaving is unrelated to the topics of the Olivet discourse and Revelation.)



Since 70 AD, or soon afterward, there haven been no more false messiahs presented to Priestly Jews. People claiming to be Jesus is irrelevant.



We're not told that persecution of Christians would cease after the end of the Temple.

Jesus desription of the Great ribulation tha preceded His return as NOT AD70, as that is a time that made that look minor in comprison, and AD70 was not that!

 

[kyredneck]

You do know that the term dos NOT mean something being done right now, but that when it all happen, will get down quickly? His second Comin event shall be quick, as we are all changed in twinkling of an eye, righ?

Dispensational garbage. 'The time is at hand' is plain. 'Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand' is plain.

 

[Yeshua1]

...and the significance of their dead bodies lying in the streets of JERUSALEM, i.e. Mystery Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, totally escapes you.

There was NO second coming in AD 70!

 

[kyredneck]

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

This is fulfilled in the Transfiguration which immediately followed our Lords words (Matthew 17:1).

That is so lame:

1 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:
2 and he was transfigured before them; and his face did shine as the sun, and his garments became white as the light. Mt 17

To think that Christ would be saying, "some of you are not going to die within the next six days". Incredible. I'd be ashamed to be so desperate to contradict His plain words.

Again, this is right out of the Dispy playbook.

This is a good read that explores several angles:

A Critical Text (Matthew 16:27-28)

 

[Baptist Brother]

Jesus desription of the Great ribulation tha preceded His return as NOT AD70, as that is a time that made that look minor in comprison, and AD70 was not that!

Josephus says over a 1.1 million people were killed in Jerusalem in the 70 AD war, many dying exceptionally slow and grizzly deaths. If Jerusalem had just a million citizens, it would have been one of the largest cities in the entire world. If it hadn't stopped when it did, no one in the city would have been left alive. By what criteria do you think the war wasn't so bad?

What war in Jerusalem was worse?

If you can stretch "soon" to an indefinite number of centuries, you could stretch a broken fingernail into the worst thing to ever happen in the world. So, why won't you accept the worst thing that ever happened in Jerusalem as the worst thing that ever happened there?

 

[Baptist Brother]

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16



That is so lame:

1 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:

Some people standing here today Will not taste death until the see the son of man coming.... Yeah, that must be the transfiguration six days later. <roll eyes>

While 30-ish and healthy, "I hope to pay off my house before I die..." <six days later> "Here's the last mortgage payment."

Also, how is a transfiguration "coming"?

Also, "some people will not die" means "some people will die". How many people standing there died in within the next six days?

Someone rightly said debating with a Dispensationalist is like being in a kicking context with a one-legged man.

 

[Yeshua1]

Josephus says over a 1.1 million people were killed in Jerusalem in the 70 AD war, many dying exceptionally slow and grizzly deaths. If Jerusalem had just a million citizens, it would have been one of the largest cities in the entire world. If it hadn't stopped when it did, no one in the city would have been left alive. By what criteria do you think the war wasn't so bad?

What war in Jerusalem was worse?

If you can stretch "soon" to an indefinite number of centuries, you could stretch a broken fingernail into the worst thing to ever happen in the world. So, why won't you accept the worst thing that ever happened in Jerusalem as the worst thing that ever happened there?

Jesus described it as being right befoe His second coming, so whendid He come back and set up reign on the Earth?

 

[Yeshua1]

Some people standing here today Will not taste death until the see the son of man coming.... Yeah, that must be the transfiguration six days later. <roll eyes>

While 30-ish and healthy, "I hope to pay off my house before I die..." <six days later> "Here's the last mortgage payment."

Also, how is a transfiguration "coming"?

Also, "some people will not die" means "some people will die". How many people standing there died in within the next six days?

Someone rightly said debating with a Dispensationalist is like being in a kicking context with a one-legged man.

When did we have the Rapture of the Church then?

 

[Baptist Brother]

When did we have the Rapture of the Church then?

You're raptured after you die. The Bible says nothing about the whole church being raptured at once. And, the belief that the living are raptured is a result of a poor reading of a single verse.

Jesus's Millennial kingdom is not of this world. Do you think Satan is going to be released into a world politically and physically ruled by Jesus?

 

[Yeshua1]

You're raptured after you die. The Bible says nothing about the whole church being raptured at once. And, the belief that the living are raptured is a result of a poor reading of a single verse.

Jesus's Millennial kingdom is not of this world. Do you think Satan is going to be released into a world politically and physically ruled by Jesus?

Satan islocked away durin hemillinium reign of Jesus, and Paul was very clear that at he second coming, all of the dead and alive in Christ would have a physical bodily resurrection!

 

[Covenanter]

An important question concerns whether Israel, as a nation, has a future distinct from the saved Jews & Gentiles being one people of God in the church. Dispensationalists see such a future following the rapture of the church.

What did Moses teach, & how did Peter apply his Messianic prophecy?

Deut. 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Their only hope of salvation would be in repentance & baptism in the name of Jesus. Many thousands responded as the Gospel spread around. Those who rejected the Gospel would be destroyed, as Jesus had prophesied.

There is no suggestion in the Apostolic teaching of an end times restoration of national Israel, even though salvation was preached. The Apostles clearly maintained that the prophetic promises foretold of these days. Their days.

 

[GenevanBaptist]

AND there are NO verses in the Gospels at all, of the importance of a 'regathering' of Israel as a nation.
It is SO important today in the normal church society to look at this supposed importance, yet in the NT times, nobody stressed it as important.

 

[Grasshopper]

The Great Tribulation period has NOT yet happened in history, as Jesus stated would be a time like NEVER before, and that all life itself might be destroyed, and that His second coming would avert yhat from happening. AD 70 was NOT that event!

Greatest Tribulation Ever

Matthew 24:21

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The language that Jesus used in Matt. 24:21 is a hyperbole, an extreme exaggeration to make a point. Jesus applied this verse to the destruction of Jerusalem in the Jewish War (66-70 A.D). This kind of symbolic language was common in the Old Testament whereas if it is taken literally it yields contradictions. For example compare the following two verses.

2 Kings 18:5

He (Hezekiah) trusted in the LORD God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him.

2 Kings 23:25

Now before him (Josiah) there was no king like him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses; nor after him did any arise like him

How can Hezekiah and Josiah both be the most devoted kings of all time. They cannot. The language is obviously hyperbolic. This hyperbolic language was also applied to other earthly judgments besides 70 A.D.

Exodus 10:14

And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt and rested on all the territory of Egypt. They were very severe; previously there had been no such locusts as they, nor shall there be such after them.

Exodus 11:6

Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again.

Ezekiel 5:9

And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations

Daniel 9:12

And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

Daniel 12:1

"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered,


Joel 2:2

A day of darkness and gloominess,

A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Like the morning clouds spread over the

mountains.

A people come, great and strong,

The like of whom has never been;

Nor will there ever be any such after them,

Even for many successive generations

So Matt. 24:21 is a hyperbole borrowed from the Old Testament used to describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Another line of thinking is that the first century Jews crucified Jesus. Their crime was the worst in history. Therefore their punishment was the worst in history covenantally speaking. Worst crime = Worst punishment. Israel was divorced by God as His covenant people. Never again would the Jews have a special status with God. Now in Christ their is neither Jew nor Greek.

Finally, the futurist believe the upcoming tribulation will kill only 1/4 to 1/2 of the world's population. They also believe Noah's flood wiped out the entire world's population except for one family! So shouldn't Noah's flood be the greatest tribulation in their view? Though in reality Noah's flood was local, not global.

http://preterismmatters.webs.com/matthew24fulfilled.htm

 

[Yeshua1]

Greatest Tribulation Ever

Matthew 24:21

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The language that Jesus used in Matt. 24:21 is a hyperbole, an extreme exaggeration to make a point. Jesus applied this verse to the destruction of Jerusalem in the Jewish War (66-70 A.D). This kind of symbolic language was common in the Old Testament whereas if it is taken literally it yields contradictions. For example compare the following two verses.

2 Kings 18:5

He (Hezekiah) trusted in the LORD God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him.

2 Kings 23:25

Now before him (Josiah) there was no king like him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses; nor after him did any arise like him

How can Hezekiah and Josiah both be the most devoted kings of all time. They cannot. The language is obviously hyperbolic. This hyperbolic language was also applied to other earthly judgments besides 70 A.D.

Exodus 10:14

And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt and rested on all the territory of Egypt. They were very severe; previously there had been no such locusts as they, nor shall there be such after them.

Exodus 11:6

Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again.

Ezekiel 5:9

And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations

Daniel 9:12

And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

Daniel 12:1

"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered,


Joel 2:2

A day of darkness and gloominess,

A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Like the morning clouds spread over the

mountains.

A people come, great and strong,

The like of whom has never been;

Nor will there ever be any such after them,

Even for many successive generations

So Matt. 24:21 is a hyperbole borrowed from the Old Testament used to describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Another line of thinking is that the first century Jews crucified Jesus. Their crime was the worst in history. Therefore their punishment was the worst in history covenantally speaking. Worst crime = Worst punishment. Israel was divorced by God as His covenant people. Never again would the Jews have a special status with God. Now in Christ their is neither Jew nor Greek.

Finally, the futurist believe the upcoming tribulation will kill only 1/4 to 1/2 of the world's population. They also believe Noah's flood wiped out the entire world's population except for one family! So shouldn't Noah's flood be the greatest tribulation in their view? Though in reality Noah's flood was local, not global.

http://preterismmatters.webs.com/matthew24fulfilled.htm

The Flood was world wide, and te Grea tribultion was not just Isael and God, but all the earth would feel His wrath!

 

[kyredneck]

Another line of thinking is that the first century Jews crucified Jesus.

Well, yea. Beyond any doubt the Spirit through His witnesses convicted them of the crime.

They even bore the blame for it right up front:

25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mt 27

Their crime was the worst in history.

"Upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth", and, "in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth" is pretty bad, don't you think?