Featured The word wine does not mean alcoholic always.

If you don't mind, I'll forego further comment here until someone has actually rebutted on this thread my own comments about oinos.

I usually avoid these threads nowadays, feeling they accomplish nothing, but I got on this one because I felt Jordan and his OP were being unfairly attacked as "legalistic." Other than that, I don't have a dog in the race.

 

The fermentation process of wine was begun in the vats, but then it was taken from the vats and completed in jars or wineskins. Hence, "new" wine was the wine already in its beginning stages of fermentation but was put in the wineskin to finish the process and age the wine. A.M.Wilson gives you the historical background in his book pages 251-270

This was a common proleptical expression used by owners of vineyards who produced grapes for no other purpose than for wine. The Mishnah refers to fermented wine as a blessing from the grape. In all of its stages it is commonly called wine because that was the intent or ultimate design. Wilson provides numerous examples of this kind of language where there is no doubt wine not grape juice is the intent. Think about the terms "winepress" as surely what came out could only be grapejuice, but it is still called a "wine" press because the ultimate intent was to produce wine and therefore never called a "grapejuice press."

 

Thank you for a very informative post.

 

HAHAHAHHAHAHAhohohohahaha When I read some things like the first post or what is quoted above, I can't help but to think we're being trolled.

Is. 65.8 is a figure of speech. In Matt. 9.17, how do you think new wine bursts old wine skin if not by fermentation?

 

Which verse says wine was mixed with water? STOP making things up.

Wine wouldn't kill microbes in water because the alcohol content isn't strong enough to do that effectively if the wine is much diluted.

STOP MAKING THINGS UP. Who drinks watered down wine? Maybe your grandmother sipping wine coolers, but that's only 1:1 parts water:wine.

WOULD YOU STOP MAKING THINGS UP!!!! No scripture indicates that "strong drink" is the term for unmixed wine.

Your own verses refute your Pharisaical falsehoods.
Lev 10.9 shows that both wine and strong drink are equivalents, not that one is the stronger version of the other.
Num 6.3 shows that both wine and strong drink are equivalents, not that one is the stronger version of the other. Further, the mention of both vinegar of wine and vinegar of strong drink shows that vinegar is not any kind of wine. Vinegar itself is non-alcoholic. It makes no sense to call something watered down non-alcohol.
Luk 1:5 shows both wine and strong drink are equivalents.

Where does your brain even get the idea that those verses somehow support show that "strong drink" is unmixed wine?

 

We are NOT to be drunkards but can have a little alcohol! I will have a little whiskey now and then(very very rarely) when I have trouble sleeping! Having a drink isn't sinful, getting drunk is! I personally stay away from it because I don't like the effects of alcohol(makes me a nutcase) but it can be medicinal on occasion! I have no reason to believe the wine at the wedding was non alcoholic..it's a wedding party that goes on for days and I find it hard to believe they were just drinking grape juice! I am not one to support daily consumption of alcoholic beverages but having a drink on occasion isn't sinful! Once you become intoxicated then you open the door for the devil!

 

Just the word "wine" makes some people nutcases.

Hard is an understatement.

 

This reply and others I've seen by you (one calling my beliefs "Satanic") are so nasty and unloving--even juvenile--that I'm putting you on "ignore" without ever even interacting with you. Have a good life--somehow. ("Baptist Brother?" Really? Then act like one.)

 

Wine..l stay away from it. Let's talk Scotch, Bourbon, Vodka. Over time, you get Steve Bannon--My hero!

 

Actually, the fermentation process starts before the vats. Yeast is often on grapes in the field like white on rice, or literally, a white film of yeast on the grapes. Grapes damaged by picking are already food for yeast and various microbes. Fermentation and decay begins in earnest as soon as the grapes are pressed.

In just a couple of days, the grape juice will start becoming objectionably nasty, if alcohol fermentation hasn't been encouraged. (The Welch's juice you buy at the store will last longer, if left out, because it has been pasteurized and your home is relatively sterile.)

I appreciate Christians warning against alcohol abuse and against a lifestyle centered on drinking. But, it's shameless for Christians to misrepresent anything and demonstrate a total disregard for whether nor not what they're saying is true, and that includes wine in the Bible (verses in the Bible alleged to show non-alcoholic wine, claims wine in the Bible was mixed with water, claims ancient Romans used the word wine to mean just grape juice, etc.). It also doesn't reflect well on those Christians when the pretend they have no obligation to answer for their misrepresentations.

In ancient times, fermentation would only come to a complete stop after a long while. They might even want to encourage people to drink it before the fermentation is completely done, because by that time, the wine might have deteriorated. Having some fermentation while while it's being bottled (put in wine skins) would also help extend shelf-life (the gas displacing air).

Jesus tells as that he drank alcohol, Luke 7:33–44. We know it was alcohol because Jesus also tells us that the Pharisees judged him for it (essentially calling him a wino). Even if it could be shown that "wine" is also used for mere grape juice, that wouldn't undo the numerous verses that speak positively about clearly alcoholic wine. But, there are no verses that apply the word wine to mere grape juice. The very few verses that might do that are, as you say, referring the the intended product, not the intermediate product. "Wine in the cluster" is a figure of speech, and it isn't even a reference to a literal cluster of grapes.

 

Amen! Like like like.