The word wine does not mean alcoholic always.

[The Biblicist]

No, haven't read it but probably should. Nowadays I usually avoid these alcohol threads, but this time I got in because of the unwarranted attacks on Jordan and his OP. Frankly, though, I note that this book is from 1877, so there is no way in the world it could correctly address the facts and research as they stand in 2017, 140 years after.

As it stands, Jordan's OP is correct. The Greek oinos can mean either fermented or unfermented liquid from grapes.

Another thing, when you say research and facts as they stand in 2017 what are you referring to? Biblical, Classical Greek, New Testament era, what?

 

[The Biblicist]

I want to make it clear that I am a non-drinker, not because the Bible condemns it, but because there are biblical principles that must be considered when using any liberty.

 

[Jerome]

RC Sproul...made good arguments and second the HOLY BIBLE not once says I cannot drink it in moderation.

Yes, he said this:

http://rcsprouljunior.blogspot.com/2011/03/five-things-im-not-surprised-i-dont.html

the Bible no where forbids the drinking of alcohol in moderation

Oops:

Dec. 16, 2016 - R.C. Sproul Jr.'s Felonious DUI Arrest With Minor in Vehicle

 

[The Biblicist]

Pr 31:4-7 4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. 6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

I guess you noticed the latter portion of the above text? The question is what is "strong" drink as there were "mixed" alcoholic drinks. I think we all agree that drinking for the purpose of intoxication is wrong. I might point out that merely drinking wine is not being intoxicated or drunk. Drunkenness is defined by Paul in Ephesians 5:18 in his comparison of being filled with the Spirit. Drunkeness is when alchohol controls your thinking and body so that your body does not cooperate with your will or intentions. Being filled with the Spirit is where your thinking and body does not cooperate with the will or intentions of the law of indwelling sin but is under the control of the Spirit.

If merely drinking wine induced intoxication then the term "excess" is rendered meaningless.

 

[John of Japan]

If that research in 2017 is not based upon previous works you may have a point but if it is then it is no better than the previous works.

You are aware of the vast amount of papyrii and various other ancient works discovered since 1877, correct? Recent lexicons such as Friberg's Anlex, quoted above, include unfermented juice in their definitions.

I know of no place in scripture where oinos is used for unfermented liquid from the grape. Can you give an example?

Try Matt. 9:17 and the parallel passages in Mark and Luke. There was no need for the authors to add "new" (meaning unfermented, obviously) if the oinos was always fermented. The oinos was put into the leather bottles before the fermentation proceeded.

In Is. 65:8 in the LXX, oinos is used to translate tirosh when referring to the juice while it is still in the grape. Now, unless someone can ferment oinos still in the grape, the oinos reference is to grape juice.

 

[John of Japan]

Another thing, when you say research and facts as they stand in 2017 what are you referring to? Biblical, Classical Greek, New Testament era, what?

It really doesn't matter. 1877 is out of date in the scholarly world, period. It's out of date in my own thinking, just as William Patton's book is (1872). If one of my students did a paper on the subject and used either book as a source, I would count off just as I would for Wikipedia as a source.

 

[John of Japan]

I guess you noticed the latter portion of the above text? The question is what is "strong" drink as there were "mixed" alcoholic drinks. I think we all agree that drinking for the purpose of intoxication is wrong. I might point out that merely drinking wine is not being intoxicated or drunk. Drunkenness is defined by Paul in Ephesians 5:18 in his comparison of being filled with the Spirit. Drunkeness is when alchohol controls your thinking and body so that your body does not cooperate with your will or intentions. Being filled with the Spirit is where your thinking and body does not cooperate with the will or intentions of the law of indwelling sin but is under the control of the Spirit.

Yet it is still negative towards wine, which was the only point I was making.

If merely drinking wine induced intoxication then the term "excess" is rendered meaningless.

This begs the question of at what point intoxication occurs. I never drink a single drop, therefore I don't have to worry about being intoxicated at any level. Love my grape juice every morning, though.

 

[TCassidy]

A grape has carbon dioxide in it?

It has the chemical basis for CO2. Sugar. C6-H12-O6. As the sugar changes to alcohol (C2H5OH) the excess CO2 (C+O+O) is given off as a gas. And, of course, that is what bursts the old wine skins.

But you already know that and were just having fun with the food fight motif!

 

[evangelist6589]

You've got to be kidding me! What a ridiculous post. First of all, I'd have to respect Gentry as a scholar, and I don't.

Afraid of the arguments in the book?

 

[HankD]

Very interesting. My classical Greek lexicon (Liddell and Scott) has for that word: "that which settles at the bottom, sediment" (p. 743).

OK, hupostasis Kittel's Volume VIII, pgs. 572-589.

Medical and Scientific usage (before it took on philosophical usage pgs. 572-574). Used almost eclusively in medicine and science - of sediment of bodily fluid (from kidneys) in the sense of making a determination of one's health, i.e. the hupostasis of one's health. In science e.g. the product of smelting and processing ore and reducing the materials e.g. silver ore, to pure silver, the finished product the essence of silver or silver in its pure state. The hupostasis of silver. Of wine or grape juice - the reduction of the fluid to a sedimentary form or paste, it's essence.

In philosophical usage, the Hellenistic view of the essential derivative of the reality of an entity.
e.g. Pure silver (arguros) is the derived reality of silver ore (luna).

The emanation of (a) sunbeam from (the) sun. Augustine (De Trinitat, libri xv).
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txue/august40.htm

I couldn't find the more detailed descriptions of the grape paste usage but I definitely remember reading about it.

In NT usage:

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness (apaugasma) of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostaseos), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Brightness apaugasma

3a Jesus is the light (shekinah?) of God's glory.

Interesting comparison of Hebrews 1:3 with Wisdom 7:26 (Apocrypha-1611 King James, also LXX):

Wisdom 7:26 For she is the brightness (LXX-apaugasma) of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty, and the image of his goodness.

Hmm interesting, no? What do you think John?

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Afraid of the arguments in the book?

Thanks for this post. I really had a good laugh at this one. Made my day.

Yeah, I'm afraid of Gentry just like I'm afraid of your other hero, Ray Comfort.

 

[John of Japan]

It has the chemical basis for CO2. Sugar. C6-H12-O6. As the sugar changes to alcohol (C2H5OH) the excess CO2 (C+O+O) is given off as a gas. And, of course, that is what bursts the old wine skins.

But you already know that and were just having fun with the food fight motif!

Well, you must admit a food fight with exploding grapes would be awesome!

 

[John of Japan]

OK, hupostasis Kittel's Volume VIII, pgs. 572-589.

Medical and Scientific usage (before it took on philosophical usage pgs. 572-574). Used almost eclusively in medicine and science - of sediment of bodily fluid (from kidneys) in the sense of making a determination of one's health, i.e. the hupostasis of one's health. In science e.g. the product of smelting and processing ore and reducing the materials e.g. silver ore, to pure silver, the finished product the essence of silver or silver in its pure state. The hupostasis of silver. Of wine or grape juice - the reduction of the fluid to a sedimentary form or paste, it's essence.

In philosophical usage, the Hellenistic view of the essential derivative of the reality of an entity.
e.g. Pure silver (arguros) is the derived reality of silver ore (luna).

The emanation of (a) sunbeam from (the) sun. Augustine (De Trinitat, libri xv).
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txue/august40.htm

I couldn't find the more detailed descriptions of the grape paste usage but I definitely remember reading about it.

In NT usage:

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness (apaugasma) of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostaseos), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Brightness apaugasma

3a Jesus is the light (shekinah?) of God's glory.

Interesting comparison of Hebrews 1:3 with Wisdom 7:26 (Apocrypha-1611 King James, also LXX):

Wisdom 7:26 For she is the brightness (LXX-apaugasma) of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty, and the image of his goodness.

Hmm interesting, no? What do you think John?

HankD

Great stuff. Thank you!

 

[evangelist6589]

Yes, he said this:

http://rcsprouljunior.blogspot.com/2011/03/five-things-im-not-surprised-i-dont.html


Oops:

Dec. 16, 2016 - R.C. Sproul Jr.'s Felonious DUI Arrest With Minor in Vehicle

Read my post again. I said RC Sproul. Not jr.!

 

[evangelist6589]

Thanks for this post. I really had a good laugh at this one. Made my day.

Yeah, I'm afraid of Gentry just like I'm afraid of your other hero, Ray Comfort.

You can't even address the scriptures that he quotes and arguments but instead turn to post a pic!

 

[John of Japan]

You can't even address the scriptures that he quotes and arguments but instead turn to post a pic!

Another post good for a laugh. He hasn't quoted any Scriptures here on the BB, so how could I possibly address them?

Tell you what, you buy me the book and I'll read it and critique it, even though he is a former Baptist who went all the way to bankrupt Presbyterianism and partial preterism (how absurd!).

 

[John of Japan]

Next you need a pic of a gremlin!

That's juvenile and absurdity upon absurdity.

 

[evangelist6589]

Another post good for a laugh. He hasn't quoted any Scriptures here on the BB, so how could I possibly address them?

Tell you what, you buy me the book and I'll read it and critique it, even though he is a former Baptist who went all the way to bankrupt Presbyterianism and partial preterism (how absurd!).

So what if his eschatology I am talking about his view on alcohol.

 

[John of Japan]

So what if his eschatology I am talking about his view on alcohol.

Just pointing out his unreliability and illogical progression of thought.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are aware of the vast amount of papyrii and various other ancient works discovered since 1877, correct? Recent lexicons such as Friberg's Anlex, quoted above, include unfermented juice in their definitions.
Try Matt. 9:17 and the parallel passages in Mark and Luke. There was no need for the authors to add "new" (meaning unfermented, obviously) if the oinos was always fermented. The oinos was put into the leather bottles before the fermentation proceeded.

In Is. 65:8 in the LXX, oinos is used to translate tirosh when referring to the juice while it is still in the grape. Now, unless someone can ferment oinos still in the grape, the oinos reference is to grape juice.

I thought this is the type of texts I would be reading. Do you know why a press is called a "wine" press? Not because it presses wine but because its design is to produce wine which starts with pressing fresh grapes. This is common language used for grapes or putting juice in bags as the intent is fermented wine.

This is common in classical Greek and this is the kind of abuse of language I referred. Please read Wilsom's book.