The word wine does not mean alcoholic always.

[HankD]

Really? A grape has carbon dioxide in it? So, like, if we had a food fight with grapes, those things would be exploding when they hit. Cool!


This has been said before here, but I've never seen it proven. Do you have some kind of scientific evidence for this? And it seems to me that if it is true, that doesn't mean that there would be much alcohol at all for quite awhile, probably not enough to taste or even matter.

According to the Wikipedia article, "It should be noted that few yeast, and lactic and acetic acid bacterial colonies naturally live on the surface of grapes." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_in_winemaking). Now, Wikipedia is not reliable as a source, but this article does source the information. In other words, to have grape juice ferment because of yeast on the grapes, you must purposefully put the yeast there. Furthermore, it seems like a simple process before or right after harvesting the grapes could wash the grapes and produce pure grape juice, if one wished to do so.

Not about grapes but natural yeast.

In Maine there are many cider mills because there are many apple trees.

Every year we would collect several bushels of apples (our mill required a minimum of 6) and have them rendered for cider with space enough for freezing. The service and plastic containers cost 25 cents per gallon (n the 80's,90's).

I remember usually getting 20-30 gallons per year.
They went in a second freezer until the temperature was less than 32 F. then they went out to a shed.

On our heated porch I would put 2 gallons (no yeast or anything else added) which would foam away and then turn clear resulting in hard cider - maybe 5% alcohol, depends on the sugar content for any given year.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Paul encouraged Timothy to take a little wine for the sake of his stomach,

You're mixing up medical alcohol and beverage alcohol. Not the same. I drink Nyquil when I have a cold.

Isa 55 speaks positively of wine and there are so many more passages in the Bible that speak positively of wine.

No Isaish. 55 does not speak positively of wine. In fact, Isaiah speaks negatively of wine many times:

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Isa 56:12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and] much more abundant.

 

[John of Japan]

Not about grapes but natural yeast.

In Maine there are many cider mills because there are many apple trees.

Every year we would collect several bushels of apples (our mill required a minimum of 6) and have them rendered for cider with space enough for freezing. The service and plastic containers cost 25 cents per gallon (n the 80's,90's).

I remember usually getting 20-30 gallons per year.
They went in a second freezer until the temperature was less than 32 F. then they went out to a shed.

On our heated porch I would put 2 gallons (no yeast or anything else added) which would foam away and then turn clear resulting in hard cider - maybe 5% alcohol, depends on the sugar content for any given year.

HankD

I can believe that. I have read that there is natural yeast in the air (can't source it), which can then get into the cider or grape juice and ferment it naturally. But then to get that you have to purposefully leave it open to the air, right?

 

[HankD]

I can believe that. I have read that there is natural yeast in the air (can't source it), which can then get into the cider or grape juice and ferment it naturally. But then to get that you have to purposefully leave it open to the air, right?

Yes, my Italian paternal grandfather would squeeze/crush grapes in his cellar.
That was enough exposure to the air I would think.
My cousin and I would help and watch and I don't remember him adding any yeast (but he might have).
The barrel had a loose and removable cover to keep out flies.
I think it was spring when he began the bottling process.


HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Here is an excellent link showing how grape juice was preserved from fermentation in the time of Christ:
http://www.johnhamelministries.org/wine_lie_Jesus.htm.

Look down about 3/4 of the page to where the evidence of Columella, a 1st century agriculturist, is discussed.

 

[HankD]

Here is an excellent link showing how grape juice was preserved from fermentation in the time of Christ:
http://www.johnhamelministries.org/wine_lie_Jesus.htm.

Look down about 3/4 of the page to where the evidence of Columella, a 1st century agriculturist, is discussed.

Yes, I have heard of that process.

Also (by serendipity) when studying the Hypostatic Union for a paper, I found an article saying that in bible times grape juice was occasionally boiled down in a metal vessel to a very thick substance called hupostasis and used as a kind of jelly or mixed with clean water from a pure well to make reconstituted non-alcoholic grape juice for immediate consumption.

HankD

 

[Jerome]

In Maine there are many cider mills because there are many apple trees.

Every year we would collect several bushels of apples...and have them rendered for cider

Thank you, a comparable word in English, cider, that could mean either the unfermented juice or that which has turned alcoholic.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/cider

 

[evangelist6589]

You're mixing up medical alcohol and beverage alcohol. Not the same. I drink Nyquil when I have a cold.


No Isaish. 55 does not speak positively of wine. In fact, Isaiah speaks negatively of wine many times:

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Isa 56:12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and] much more abundant.

Isa 55:1 in the NKJV speaks positively of wine. When Isa speaks negative he is speaking about drunkenness and wine can be abused. Off the top of my head I do not remember all the positive passages but the book "God gave wine" lists many in favor of alcohol in moderation.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, I have heard of that process.

Also (by serendipity) when studying the Hypostatic Union for a paper, I found an article saying that in bible times grape juice was occasionally boiled down in a metal vessel to a very thick substance called hupostasis and used as a kind of jelly or mixed with clean water from a pure well to make reconstituted non-alcoholic grape juice for immediate consumption.

HankD

Very interesting. My classical Greek lexicon (Liddell and Scott) has for that word: "that which settles at the bottom, sediment" (p. 743).

 

[John of Japan]

Isa 55:1 in the NKJV speaks positively of wine. When Isa speaks negative he is speaking about drunkenness and wine can be abused. Off the top of my head I do not remember all the positive passages but the book "God gave wine" lists many in favor of alcohol in moderation.

Point taken about 55:1. But frankly, there are far more verses negative on wine than positive. For example, every single mention in Proverbs is negative:

Pr 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Pr 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

Pr. 23:29-35 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Pr 31:4-7 4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. 6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

 

[HankD]

Very interesting. My classical Greek lexicon (Liddell and Scott) has for that word: "that which settles at the bottom, sediment" (p. 743).

I think it was in my Kittel's, not sure, it's been many decades Ill look and see.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

When Isa speaks negative he is speaking about drunkenness and wine can be abused.

You are jumping to a conclusion with no evidence. Prove to me that the negative mentions in Isaiah are all about drunkenness. For example, 28:7 speaks of the priests drinking, and then committing errors of judgment. As is common knowledge, one does not have to be legally drunk to have his judgment impaired by alcohol.

Furthermore, the priests were commanded not to drink any wine whatsoever (Lev. 10:9-10). In that passage, wine and strong drink are called unholy. So just go ahead and drink your unholy hard cider, putting it into the temple of the Holy Spirit. And forget about the Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of the believer.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are jumping to a conclusion with no evidence. Prove to me that the negative mentions in Isaiah are all about drunkenness. For example, 28:7 speaks of the priests drinking, and then committing errors of judgment. As is common knowledge, one does not have to be legally drunk to have his judgment impaired by alcohol.

Furthermore, the priests were commanded not to drink any wine whatsoever (Lev. 10:9-10). In that passage, wine and strong drink are called unholy. So just go ahead and drink your unholy hard cider, putting it into the temple of the Holy Spirit. And forget about the Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of the believer.

John have you ever read A.M. Wilsons book on "The Wines of the Bible"? http://victorybaptistchurch.webstarts.com/uploads/THE_WINES_book1.pdf

Most of the "historical facts" floating around come from perversion of the real historical context for those so-called facts (Like Patton's book).

Wilson is a non-drinker but a classical scholar and he places the quotations used by others back into their proper context.

 

[John of Japan]

John have you ever read A.M. Wilsons book on "The Wines of the Bible"? http://victorybaptistchurch.webstarts.com/uploads/THE_WINES_book1.pdf

Most of the "historical facts" floating around come from perversion of the real historical context for those so-called facts (Like Patton's book).

Wilson is a non-drinker but a classical scholar and he places the quotations used by others back into their proper context.

No, haven't read it but probably should. Nowadays I usually avoid these alcohol threads, but this time I got in because of the unwarranted attacks on Jordan and his OP. Frankly, though, I note that this book is from 1877, so there is no way in the world it could correctly address the facts and research as they stand in 2017, 140 years after.

As it stands, Jordan's OP is correct. The Greek oinos can mean either fermented or unfermented liquid from grapes.

 

[Revmitchell]

Buzzed is drunk

 

[evangelist6589]

No, haven't read it but probably should. Nowadays I usually avoid these alcohol threads, but this time I got in because of the unwarranted attacks on Jordan and his OP. Frankly, though, I note that this book is from 1877, so there is no way in the world it could correctly address the facts and research as they stand in 2017, 140 years after.

As it stands, Jordan's OP is correct. The Greek oinos can mean either fermented or unfermented liquid from grapes.

Kenneth Gentry wants you to read his book on wine but you have not. Why?

 

[evangelist6589]

You are jumping to a conclusion with no evidence. Prove to me that the negative mentions in Isaiah are all about drunkenness. For example, 28:7 speaks of the priests drinking, and then committing errors of judgment. As is common knowledge, one does not have to be legally drunk to have his judgment impaired by alcohol.

Furthermore, the priests were commanded not to drink any wine whatsoever (Lev. 10:9-10). In that passage, wine and strong drink are called unholy. So just go ahead and drink your unholy hard cider, putting it into the temple of the Holy Spirit. And forget about the Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of the believer.

I will drink because of two reasons. Both RC Sproul and Kenneth Gentry have made good arguments and second the HOLY BIBLE not once says I cannot drink it in moderation.

 

[HankD]

I agree with JoJ and usually don't get involved with these discussions about alcohol.

It doesn't matter what I - a man - believes about consuming alcohol.
What if I am wrong and cause you to stumble.

If you yourself have a a doubt or feel any guilt at all about drinking alcoholic beverages - DON'T do it.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

No, haven't read it but probably should. Nowadays I usually avoid these alcohol threads, but this time I got in because of the unwarranted attacks on Jordan and his OP. Frankly, though, I note that this book is from 1877, so there is no way in the world it could correctly address the facts and research as they stand in 2017, 140 years after.

As it stands, Jordan's OP is correct. The Greek oinos can mean either fermented or unfermented liquid from grapes.

If that research in 2017 is not based upon previous works you may have a point but if it is then it is no better than the previous works. I know of no place in scripture where oinos is used for unfermented liquid from the grape. Can you give an example?

 

[John of Japan]

Kenneth Gentry wants you to read his book on wine but you have not. Why?

You've got to be kidding me! What a ridiculous post. First of all, I'd have to respect Gentry as a scholar, and I don't.