Is Acts 17:30 only the elect or the entire human race?

[TCassidy]

I feel that you are self-blinded to the Truth on what anyone says that goes against what you believe.

Then you would be wrong again. But, of course, I do believe what I believe. Everybody does! LOL!

You think that because you have been a Christian a long time, that you have all the answers.

Another false accusation.

You always come back with your rather lofty responses, even though they are completely wrong!

The Knowledge of the Holy is a lofty subject and should be treated as such.

And, of course, you have not proven any of my positions to be wrong. If you were able to prove them wrong you would not have to post falsehoods, call names, and generally throw a tantrum.

Instead of admitting that the Reformed position of the "decrees of God" are indeed unbiblical, and DO make God the author of sinful actions of man, you and the rest of those who follow this, will do everything to defend the undefendable!

Just because you seem to lack the capacity to understand the obvious distinction between God's decretal will and His permissive will does not mean it is incorrect. It only means that you don't understand it.

 

[TCassidy]

That's the problem..... The Calvinist thinks he/she can say the most illogical things about God and then tell us that.... God gets the glory for...being illogical. LOL

Okay, so you don't understand. Fine. That happens. But why do you post a falsehood that anyone believes God is illogical? If you can't counter the argument why not just bow out rather than posting falsehoods?

 

[HankD]

Personally, I don't see how anyone can deny that Acts 17:30 is just what it says "all men everywhere".
and not just the implied "elect" of "all men"

Why?

because when the text is expanded in its context the fact of " all men everywhere" is proven.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33 So Paul departed from among them.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Having preached to ALL, the result - some believed, some did not.

I think It is much easier to believe the alternative calvinistic argument that the "all men" refers to the new covenant all inclusiveness of the gospel - to Jew as well as Gentile.

Personally I don't believe that one either.

And even if I identified with Calvin, I would still say that God meant it as a general command down to the individual human being.

Is that fair of God knowing that some/most would not believe?
What I do know is that "fair" is qualified by God.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

So my own answer is :I don't know.
Abraham believed in His "fairness"

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

So I'll play it safe and answer my own question with the same question Abraham did.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Personally, I don't see how anyone can deny that Acts 17:30 is just what it says "all men everywhere".
and not just the implied "elect" of "all men"

I guess I don't see what you are objecting to. God does command all men (without exception) everywhere to repent.

Many times in the bible God commands us to do that which we are incapable of doing.

Be ye Holy as I am Holy. (1 Pet. 1:16). Are you as Holy as God? No? Me either.

God commands all men everywhere (through Gospel preaching) to repent.

To change his mind about Who Jesus is, and the direction his life it taking. But due to his fallen nature he not only can't repent and turn, he doesn't want to.

God's command is to bring to his attention that he is incapable of pleasing God, apart from being in Christ. And it is through that Gospel preaching a man is drawn to Christ, given the faith to believe, and repent, and obey.

God's commands for us to do that which we can't do is to show us the depth of our own depravity and our total inability, apart from Grace, to do as we are commanded.

 

[HankD]

I guess I don't see what you are objecting to. God does command all men (without exception) everywhere to repent.

Many times in the bible God commands us to do that which we are incapable of doing.

Be ye Holy as I am Holy. (1 Pet. 1:16). Are you as Holy as God? No? Me either.

God commands all men everywhere (through Gospel preaching) to repent.

To change his mind about Who Jesus is, and the direction his life it taking. But due to his fallen nature he not only can't repent and turn, he doesn't want to.

God's command is to bring to his attention that he is incapable of pleasing God, apart from being in Christ. And it is through that Gospel preaching a man is drawn to Christ, given the faith to believe, and repent, and obey.

God's commands for us to do that which we can't do is to show us the depth of our own depravity and our total inability, apart from Grace, to do as we are commanded.

Not objecting to this particular answer you are giving but some alternative calvinistic answer(s).

HankD

 

[ICHTHUS]

I guess I don't see what you are objecting to. God does command all men (without exception) everywhere to repent.

Many times in the bible God commands us to do that which we are incapable of doing.

Be ye Holy as I am Holy. (1 Pet. 1:16). Are you as Holy as God? No? Me either.

God commands all men everywhere (through Gospel preaching) to repent.

To change his mind about Who Jesus is, and the direction his life it taking. But due to his fallen nature he not only can't repent and turn, he doesn't want to.

God's command is to bring to his attention that he is incapable of pleasing God, apart from being in Christ. And it is through that Gospel preaching a man is drawn to Christ, given the faith to believe, and repent, and obey.

God's commands for us to do that which we can't do is to show us the depth of our own depravity and our total inability, apart from Grace, to do as we are commanded.

This is a false argument, "Be ye Holy as I am Holy. (1 Pet. 1:16). Are you as Holy as God? No? Me either."

It is here saying that ALL Christians should pursue to be holy in their lives, just as God is also holy. It does NOT say that we are to try to become as holy as God is. Peter uses the Greek "οτι", and not "καθως". The former which is rendered "as", is used "to give the reason", whereas the latter is, "indicating comparison". God is NOT saying that He expects us be become AS HOLY AS HE IS, which is an impossibility. But give the REASON why we should be holy, and that is BECAUSE HE IS. Yet again this argument which you have used before, is useless for purpose!

 

[ICHTHUS]

Not objecting to this particular answer you are giving but some an alternative calvinistic answer(s).

HankD

Hank, see my response to TCassidy below, which shows his "argument" is FLAWED, because it does NOT mean what he says it does!

 

[ICHTHUS]

I guess I don't see what you are objecting to. God does command all men (without exception) everywhere to repent.

Many times in the bible God commands us to do that which we are incapable of doing.

Be ye Holy as I am Holy. (1 Pet. 1:16). Are you as Holy as God? No? Me either.

God commands all men everywhere (through Gospel preaching) to repent.

To change his mind about Who Jesus is, and the direction his life it taking. But due to his fallen nature he not only can't repent and turn, he doesn't want to.

God's command is to bring to his attention that he is incapable of pleasing God, apart from being in Christ. And it is through that Gospel preaching a man is drawn to Christ, given the faith to believe, and repent, and obey.

God's commands for us to do that which we can't do is to show us the depth of our own depravity and our total inability, apart from Grace, to do as we are commanded.

God will NEVER tell us to do anything that He knows that we are not capable of doing. This teaching that you propose here is utter rubbish, and you use it as you really do NOT have a real answer to the text from Acts, as you don't for other texts that I have used. You should learn to admit that there are things that even YOU can and do get WRONG!

 

[Yeshua1]

I feel that you are self-blinded to the Truth on what anyone says that goes against what you believe. You think that because you have been a Christian a long time, that you have all the answers. You always come back with your rather lofty responses, even though they are completely wrong! Instead of admitting that the Reformed position of the "decrees of God" are indeed unbiblical, and DO make God the author of sinful actions of man, you and the rest of those who follow this, will do everything to defend the undefendable!

Calvinists do NOT make God the author of sin, as we hold to God having a determined and Premissive Will!

 

[Yeshua1]

God will NEVER tell us to do anything that He knows that we are not capable of doing. This teaching that you propose here is utter rubbish, and you use it as you really do NOT have a real answer to the text from Acts, as you don't for other texts that I have used. You should learn to admit that there are things that even YOU can and do get WRONG!

Why this hatred towards calvinists and the doctrines?

 

[ICHTHUS]

Why this hatred towards calvinists and the doctrines?

There is NO hatred towards anyone. Calvinists who claim their their teaches are based upon the Word of God, must, like every other group, be open to challenge and examination from the Word of God. I am point out that many of the practices used by Calvinists are not in accordance with sound principles, and rightly challenge them. Instead of agreeing that something they hold to can be wrong, they are noted for continuing to attack and argue for the sake of protecting their position. Even when the context and Greek grammar is against what they believe a text or passage says, they will argue. This, my friend is not the right way to correctly handle the Word of Almighty God.

 

[HankD]

Why this hatred towards calvinists and the doctrines?

Not hatred, disagreement.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

There is NO hatred towards anyone. Calvinists who claim their their teaches are based upon the Word of God, must, like every other group, be open to challenge and examination from the Word of God. I am point out that many of the practices used by Calvinists are not in accordance with sound principles, and rightly challenge them. Instead of agreeing that something they hold to can be wrong, they are noted for continuing to attack and argue for the sake of protecting their position. Even when the context and Greek grammar is against what they believe a text or passage says, they will argue. This, my friend is not the right way to correctly handle the Word of Almighty God.

I agree with that , but the truth is still that when you are shown clearly where you are misunderstand what the scriptures mean concerning this topic....

 

[ICHTHUS]

Calvinists do NOT make God the author of sin, as we hold to God having a determined and Premissive Will!

When it is said that "God decrees whatsoever come to pass", it either means WHATSOEVER, which is, "ALL THINGS", or it does not? You cannot have it both ways. Are you saying there is a different meaning to WHATSOEVER? This, then open up the charge the since sin is part of "whatsoever", then this is part of what God DOES, and not merely ALLOWS. The language is not Biblical, which is in the Catechism.

 

[ICHTHUS]

I agree with that , but the truth is still that when you are shown clearly where you are misunderstand what the scriptures mean concerning this topic....

By whom? I have posted several passages from Scripture, where it is abundantly CLEAR that the Atonement of Jesus Christ extends to, and includes the non-elect, and exactly the SAME way it does for the elect, and yet the arguments used to disprove the passages have been more to do with ones sticking to their Reformed theology, than to admit wrong and accept that they could be wrong. I have posted a thread on Judas which clearly shows that Jesus died for him, I would like some responses to this, Judas Iscariot and The Lord's Supper

 

[HankD]

FWIW, I've said this before.

There is something either missing or we do not understand concerning what is called "the tension" between the Sovereignty of God and the Responsibility of man.

Personally I am watching and waiting until HE returns to ask Him about this

Luke 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

HankD

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Your arguments are more to do with Calvinistic "theology" than what the Bible actually teaches. God will NOT ask anyone to repent and come to Him for salvation is He were not SERIOUS about it! Calvinists may like to play silly games with people by teaching non-Bible stuff, but the God of the Bible has MORE Compassion and Love that He is indeed WILLING and also PLEADS that ALL must repent and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour. I simply cannot understand WHY are Calvinists so AGAINST the salvation of EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING that ever lives, as GOD IS??? John 3:16-17, which is rightly called "The Gospel in a Nutshell", is just that, The Gospel of HOPE of a hopeless world that is hell-bound, unless they repent and turn to Jesus for their forgiveness and eternal life with him. WHY do Calvinists ALWAYS like to contend with others who preach the LOVE of Jesus for the entire human race, and the FACT that He loves them SO MUCH, that He actually DIED FOR ALL??? You guys do more DAMAGE to the Gospel of Jesus than any others who are True believers in Jesus!

I encourage you to read Ro. 9.17-21 where Paul explicitly declares the justice of God in commanding Pharaoh, "Let my people go," and at the same time hardening his heart so that he would not let the children of Israel go. It is called the sovereignty of God and is the only way any man will ever be brought to say, "God be merciful to me a sinner." (cf. Jn. 6.44.)

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? -Ro. 9.22-24.

In light of this, I fail to see a problem with Ac. 17.30.

 

[MennoSota]

Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus! Thanks for taking the time to share your views.

Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "Calvinist witch-hunting"? In case you forgot, this forum is on the Calvinistic issue, which means this is discussed here.

Secondly, my best Christian friend of over 33 years is a 5 point Calvinist, and I have Facebook friends who are also 5 point Calvinists, so you are way off by your unfounded remark!

Thirdly, In my 35 years as a believer, I have found that those who are more interested in defending what MAN says, rather than what GOD says in His Word, have been the Calvinist. Even after they have been shown conclusively from the Word, that "Limited Atonement" is NOT taught in the Bible, and that Calvin himself did NOT believe this, they will disregard this and continue to argue their position.

Fourthly, I am very much angered that the position of Calvinism on the Atonement, has done very much damage to the Christian Faith of Jesus Christ, and put MANY off Christianity, because they consider that their position is right, regardless of FACTS from the Bible.

Fifthly, I have seen from remarks on this very forum, that it is the Calvinist who will attack others who do not go along with their unbiblical nonsense, because they are so deluded that what they hold to is what the Bible Teaches.

Sixth, I believe very strongly that the position of Calvinism on the Atonement, which is central to the Christian Faith, is abhorrent to the Lord, as it reduces His Great work for the sinful human race, whereby ALL can come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and attaining eternal life. How DARE they LIMIT the finished work of Jesus on the cross?

Seventh, I, like the Lord, VERY MUCH love the lost, and greatly desire that ALL are saved and spend eternity with the Lord Jesus, as NO person should go to hell.

I hope this clears my position

May the Lord grant us understanding

You are using alternative facts...

 

[MennoSota]

Personally, I don't see how anyone can deny that Acts 17:30 is just what it says "all men everywhere".
and not just the implied "elect" of "all men"

Why?

because when the text is expanded in its context the fact of " all men everywhere" is proven.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33 So Paul departed from among them.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Having preached to ALL, the result - some believed, some did not.

I think It is much easier to believe the alternative calvinistic argument that the "all men" refers to the new covenant all inclusiveness of the gospel - to Jew as well as Gentile.

Personally I don't believe that one either.

And even if I identified with Calvin, I would still say that God meant it as a general command down to the individual human being.

Is that fair of God knowing that some/most would not believe?
What I do know is that "fair" is qualified by God.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

So my own answer is :I don't know.
Abraham believed in His "fairness"

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

So I'll play it safe and answer my own question with the same question Abraham did.

HankD

Hank, you can't see that Acts 17 supports a Reformed position. Your quotes argue against your own viewpoint, but you cannot fathom how that can possibly be.
Instead of forcing your opinion on the text, step back and let the text speak for itself. If you do, I believe you will see where you take your left turn.

 

[MennoSota]

This is a false argument, "Be ye Holy as I am Holy. (1 Pet. 1:16). Are you as Holy as God? No? Me either."

It is here saying that ALL Christians should pursue to be holy in their lives, just as God is also holy. It does NOT say that we are to try to become as holy as God is. Peter uses the Greek "οτι", and not "καθως". The former which is rendered "as", is used "to give the reason", whereas the latter is, "indicating comparison". God is NOT saying that He expects us be become AS HOLY AS HE IS, which is an impossibility. But give the REASON why we should be holy, and that is BECAUSE HE IS. Yet again this argument which you have used before, is useless for purpose!

You missed Cassidy's point entirely. Please reread his comment.