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Sovereign choice of God part deux

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017.

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  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The last thread was closed before I could respond to a couple posts. I will answer one, and hopefully both tonight. If not, I will answer Brother Jon Shaff's post later.

    Here is @InTheLight 's post..


    We are in the New Covenant now. Law keeping is not salvific.<----ITL's post

    Never said anything remotely close to that. However, God commanded the Jews to keep it, knowing they could not, and punished them accordingly when they broke it.

    In the NC, we are commanded to be holy, as He is holy. This is not an option. We are commanded to be holy. God holds us responsible even when He knows we are unable to perform that which He demands.


    Holiness is a part of sanctification, not justification. <----ITL's post

    Never said anything different.


    ...
    Yeah, and?<-----ITL's post


    Well, you keep stating that it would be unjust for God to command ppl to do something He knows they can't do. Those three stats I showed you were from non-Calvinists. In India alone, 1.3 BILLION ppl have not heard the gospel. You can not repent of your sins, turn to God, when you have no idea who Jesus Christ is. Everything centers on the gospel, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent. But many died, are dying, and will die never hearing the gospel of the Christ. And they could not repent, turn to God, w/o knowing the God-man Jesus Christ.
     
    #1 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
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  2. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


    Matthew 13:45-46 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
    Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.


    Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

    Some of my favorite passages
     
    #2 JonShaff, Apr 15, 2017
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    @JonShaff


    Think about what you keep saying in your posts Brother Jon. We either hate God or love Him. There is no state of where we're 'meh'. Now, you are saying ppl love God AFTER being saved. In that scenario, you have a bunch of ppl who hate God while at the same time seeking Him. That dog won't hunt Brother.

    In that scenario, you have God saving a multitude of ppl while they hate Him. That is Him saving them against their will. o_O

    The unregenerate hate God. The regenerate love Him, as He has wrought a work of grace upon their heart. He has done supernatural CPR on them, bringing their spirits from being dead in transgressions and sins, to being spiritually alive.
     
    #3 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
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  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Now, the context of this verse is those who are thirsty. Those who are not thirsty will not come to the water of life and freely drink of it.

    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.[Matthew 5:6]


    Now, seeing that there are NONE who seek God, how do these two verses jive with Romans 3 & Psalms 14? Remember, the scriptures can not be broken(set aside in the NIV), so how is it that these found what they were looking for when none seek God?

    I agree...
     
    #4 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
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  5. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    @JonShaff

    Bingo!! All outside of Christ are condemned, are dead in their sins and transgressions!! I knew you'd slowly start coming around!! ;) :D :)
     
    #5 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
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  6. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I've never argued against this point. Please review my other posts. Essentially I do not believe all the details of what calvinism teachers concerning total depravity.

    I've been arguing the same point over and over. You do not have to be regenerated to hear God's Word. God a drawing us and God calling us can happen without being regenerated. Faith can also happen without being regenerated.

    And you're (once again) butchering the the marriage analogy just to make your point. If loving God has anything to do with justification or regeneration then what do we do with the church in Ephesus who "left their first love" of God? Are they all lost now? Love is a fruit of the Spirit AFTER regeneration and it's part of Sanctification. Do you believe in irresistible sanctification as well?

    I think you would do well by asking me, and any other non calvie..."so what is it you do believe", because all of this "assuming" is only showing yall's arrogance and pride. Not too mention, the conversations rabbit trail needlessly and much time gets wasted.
     
    #6 JonShaff, Apr 15, 2017
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you would have done well by telling us what you believe at the outset. People reply to what is written, not to what isn't written.
     
    #7 Martin Marprelate, Apr 15, 2017
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Look, I am not saying ppl can not hear God's voice. I am not saying the unregenerate can not hear His voice. However, God does not speak audibly to ppl in today's economy. He speaks through His word.

    When we speak to the lost, they are spiritually dead in transgressions and sin. Their inner man, that man can not truly hear what we are saying. Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message concerns the Christ.[Romans 10:17]
     
    #8 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I am challenging your statement that love is an effect of being saved. That seems to me you are saying ppl don't love God, yet at the same time, seeking Him. If ppl don't love Him BEFORE being saved, then logically, ppl are seeking Him whilst hating Him.
     
    #9 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
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  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Of course, it's always the other guy's fault :)
     
    #10 JonShaff, Apr 15, 2017
  11. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You say:
    1) You do not have to be regenerated (made alive) to hear God's voice.

    Explain how a physically dead person can physically hear. Then explain how a spiritually dead person can hear the Spirit speak.

    2) Faith can happen without being regenerated (made alive).

    This is a direct rejection of Ephesians 2:8-9 where God gives the gift of faith to those whom he has made alive by grace.

    Finally, despite your claim, you fall in the camp of either semi-pelagian or pelagian. You have no problem labeling those you claim as "calvie" so you shouldn't be offended by being labeled a "pelagie."
     
    #11 MennoSota, Apr 15, 2017
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  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    The physically dead person cannot hear nor can a physically dead person sin, that is why your analogy is illogical. Balaam heard the Spirit speak. Just because a person is spiritually dead that doesn't mean he cannot be convicted of sin (sin because they do not believe on for Lord Jesus).

    Secondly, faith is not the gift in Eph. 2:8-9. It is the act of God saving you, that is the Gift. God's grace completing all of Justification, sanctification, and Glorification. That is the Gift of God.
     
    #12 JonShaff, Apr 15, 2017
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  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    #13 kyredneck, Apr 15, 2017
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    #14 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Again, when God speaks, ppl hear. Satan, Cain, Baalam, Lazarus, those bones in Ezekiel 37, the widow's son in Luke 7, the 12 y/o virgin in Mark 5, all attest to that.

    However, in today's economy, God speaks through His word. Not everyone has ears to hear what we say.
     
    #15 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Well, we are justified by faith. If justification is a gift from God, and it is, then faith is also a gift from God.
     
    #16 SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Great. Now, how do you apply them to the topic of the thread?
     
    #17 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2017
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  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What part of man, body, soul, or spirit, was not affected by the fall and is thus righteous enough to approach God on its own merits, without the sacrifice of Christ?
     
    #18 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2017
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  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    How do faithless people have faith? If a person has faith he is a believer and thus, by very definition, regenerate. :)
     
    #19 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2017
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  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I can't help but think there is plenty of guilt to go around. How often have you assumed "Calvinists" believe something you think they believe but, in fact, don't believe that at all? "_
     
    #20 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2017
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