Featured It is not in the bible !

So she had more children at Text is very clear at names three of them it says there are sisters ,plural.... the text also says in the gospels Joseph new not marry until after the birth of Jesus then it looks to me like they got busy and made up for lost time.

 

No, it is not really very clear. I have been told that back in that day they used words that do not have the same meanings of today. Everyone was called "brother" and "sister" then and as with the rest of the Scriptures we come back to the different interpretations by the many Christian sects that exist. You would believe that the sacred vessel that carried God Himself to term would then be used to bring other souls into this world, while orthodoxy says it wouldn't. Would the Ark of the Covenant of old have ever been used to carry other objects around? I don't think so!

 

So who's church was it before it was infiltrated?

How about DATES give us a year when it was infiltrated.


How about showing church teaching of worship of pagan idols.

So show us evidence, brother.

Baseless Accusations is SATANIC worship.

I don't believe you worship the Devil. Show us the evidence.

 

*obviously some doctrines will be agreed upon...

 

Its quite clear Mary had more Children because Jesus told Mary:

John 19

26When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.



If you take Jesus on his word, I wouldn't care what you see, hear, know after that doesn't matter. Word of God is #1 after that whatever.

Now if your looking for DNA test, it will clearly show that JOHN Is absolutely Mary's Son and Jesus Christ is his Brother in a divinely DNA match standard of existence.

Just like plenty of you "adopted" folks are with your very real parents.

 

Catholics don't worship anyone but God. We don't worship Mary or Relics, However there are other things you might count as idolatry and maybe you can provide dates, for example we believe the Body and Blood of Jesus to be absolutely present in the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist.

Also to be clear with the dates.

Before it was infiltrated who's church was it?

And from the years 320 down we have a uncorrupted church teaching perfect doctrine correct?


Do provide some actual source of evidence, We wouldn't want you to appear to give BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

 

Well done, Utilyan!
I want to congratulate you on your perception. I did not expect you to realise that John really was the brother of the Lord Jesus.
I'm sure you know that according to the flesh John was His first cousin; a modicum of Bible detective work reveals that. But more importantly, he was His real brother, and I'm delighted that you understand that.

Mark 3:32-35. '.....And they said to Him, "Look, Your mother and your brothers are outside seeking you." But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or my brothers?" And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."'

So there at the cross, where are His brothers according to the flesh? They are nowhere to be seen. 'For even His brothers did not believe in Him' (John 7:5). Who is it that is standing by the cross, supporting His mother in her grief? It is Mary's sister, Salome, and her son John (John 19:25). What more natural that the Lord Jesus should commit His mother into the care of the Apostle whom He loved. It appears that at some point between the Resurrection and Pentecost, more than one of our Lord's brothers after the flesh was saved and one became a leader in the Church (Acts 1:8; Galatians 1:18-19), but at the cross, when their mother had her greatest need of them, they were absent.

One might add that the Apostle John seems to have been someone who could care for Mary. He was part of a fishing business that employed people (mark 1:20) and he knew some influential people (John 18:15), but the real reason is that he, alone of either the Apostles or the Lord Jesus' brothers was present at the cross. Finally because John took Mary into his home 'from that hour,' he would have been able straight away to bring her the amazing news that Jesus had risen from the grave (John 20:10) so that she would be the very first to hear.

So yes, in a divine DNA match (as opposed to a mere human one) John is the true brother of the Lord Jesus. Congratulations on getting it absolutely right!

 

Certainly. 1215 at the 4th Lateran Council. Before that, Transubstantiation was denied by such people as Augustine of Hippo, and even afterwards, at the peril of their lives, by John Wyclif, John of Wesel and others before the Reformation..

 

The Apostasy started with some of the early Church fathers!

 

Much of the doctrines of the Church of Rome came in from pagan sources, and not the Scripture themselves!

 

I never belong to anything other than the true church of Christ, and it is not Rome!

 

It wasn't questioned till 1500s. Martin Luther still believed it, and John Calvin sort of did, Calvin's kinda complicated.

These are Augustine's words, I can definitely find earlier including Ignatius of Antioch who Succeeds PETER as bishop and was disciple of John. He knew the apostles.

Point being you can slap down a date, I will show you Christians teaching prior to that date.


Augustine of Hippo:

“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Sermons 227)

“The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST’S BODY.” (Sermons 234:2)

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.” (Sermons 272)

“How this [‘And he was carried in his own hands’] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: ‘THIS IS MY BODY.’ FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS.” (Ennartiones on the Psalms 33:1:10)

“Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED.” (Letters 98:9)

“Christ is both the Priest, OFFERING Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the SACRAMENTAL SIGN of this should be the daily Sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to OFFER herself through Him.” (City of God 10:20)

“By those sacrifices of the Old Law, this one Sacrifice is signified, in which there is a true remission of sins; but not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof.” (Questions on the Heptateuch 3:57)

“Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church.” (Enchiridion on Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

“But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death.” (Sermons 172:2)

“…I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NNE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord’s feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING.” (Ennarationes on the Psalms 98:9)

 

It absolutely was questioned before the 1500s. Many Lollards died in Britain for doing so. Transubstantiation was the very doctrine for which the martyrs died, because it upholds the ungodly power of the priesthood, and without it the whole edifice of the Church of Rome comes crashing down. As I wrote earlier, John Ruchrath of Wessel (1400-1481), a priest at Worms and lecturer at the University of Basel was another who denied the doctrine and was subjected to the tender mercies of the Inquisition for his pains. If you want someone else, you can have Berengar of Tours (1000-1088) who wrote, Concerinng the Holy Supper, against Lanfranc.

Luther believed in 'Consubstantiation' which is a sort of compromise between Transubstantiation and the truth. Calvin firmly denied the whole doctrine of Transubstantiation. Look them up..

The great thing about the Church fathers is that they constantly contradict each other and, sometimes, themselves. You can get just about any doctrine you want from them. For example:

'In the sense in which unbelievers understood Him, Christ says that "the flesh profits nothing" [John 6:63]. His flesh bestows life in a different way, when it is received through the sacrament by those who have faith. Christ makes this clear by saying, "It is the Spirit who gives life." So in the sacrament. His body and blood have an effect that is spiritual in nature The Spirit gives life, and without the Spirit's effect the sacrament feeds the body but cannot feed the soul, which profits nothing. Here arises the question which many express when they say that these things do not happen symbolically but in reality. Those who say such things are clearly out of harmony with the writings of the holy fathers. Saint Augustine, the great teacher of the Church, writes in his work On Christian Doctrine as follows: "'Unless you drink the flesh of the Son of Man,' says the Saviour, 'and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you,' Christ seems to be commanding a shameful crime [ie. cannibalism]. Therefore it is a symbol. requiring that we should have a share in the Lord's suffering, and that we should faithfully remember that He was crucified and wounded for us." We see that Augustine says that the sacraments of Christ's body and blood are celebrated in a symbolic sense by believers. For he says that to take Christ's flesh and blood in a fleshly sense involves crime, not religion.......

The Saviour and also Saint Paul teach us that the bread and wine placed on the altar are placed there as a symbol or memorial of the Lord's death, so that what was done in the past may be called back to memory in the present. This is the purpose of the sacrament: through being made mindful of His suffering, we are made sharers in the divine gift by which we have been liberated from death...... Let no one think, then, that we are denying that believers receive the Lord's body and blood in the mystery of the sacrament. Faith receives what it believes in. However, the eye does not see it, for it is spiritual food, spiritually feeding the soul, and bestowing a life of eternal blessedness. So the Saviour Himself says when He commands this mystery, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
[Ratramnus of Corbie (died 868), 'Concerning Christ's Body and Blood,' quoting Augustine of Hippo. Emphases mine]

This is pretty much what Calvin believed. The important thing to remember about the Lord's Supper is that it is a memorial, not a re-presentation. "Do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:25).

 

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

46 While he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. Mt 12

55 Is not this the carpenter`s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? Mt 13

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may behold thy works which thou doest.
4 For no man doeth anything in secret, and himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou doest these things, manifest thyself to the world.
5 For even his brethren did not believe on him. Jn 7

14 These all with one accord continued stedfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Acts 1

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord`s brother. Gal 1

 

Precisely!

Mankind is formed and made by God, but not born believing in God, thus mankind must "reconcile" unto their "maker" or forever be "separated" from Him.

 

You do know that mary of her own rightiousness was no more a sacred vessal that the prostitue Mary would have been, as both were sinners, correct?

 

So why didn't the Holy Spirit impregnate a prostitute?

 

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
,
Don't you?,

Everything we believe comes from the Scriptures, it's you who reject this reality. From Jesus's "Real Presence" in the Holy Eucharist, to the ordination of the clergy, the descent of the Holy Spirit, everything. You false biblical interpretations have led you completely astray!

 

Your right you can get what you want with proper commentary.

On the portion you quoted:
"'Unless you drink the flesh of the Son of Man,' says the Saviour, 'and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you,'

Is the only part Augustine actually said.

Here is the entire chapter:
===
CHAP. 16.--RULE FOR INTERPRETING COMMANDS AND PROHIBITIONS.

24. If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man," says Christ, "and drink His blood, ye have no life in you."(2) This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us. Scripture says: "If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink;" and this is beyond doubt a command to do a kindness. But in what follows, "for in so doing thou shall heap coals of fire on his head,"(3) one would think a deed of malevolence was enjoined. Do not doubt, then, that the expression is figurative; and, while it is possible to interpret it in two ways, one pointing to the doing of an injury, the other to a display of superiority, let charity on the contrary call you back to benevolence, and interpret the coals of fire as the burning groans of penitence by which a man's pride is cured who bewails that he has been the enemy of one who came to his assistance in distress. In the same way, when our Lord says, "He who loveth his life shall lose it,"(4) we are not to think that He forbids the prudence with which it is a man's duty to care for his life, but that He says in a figurative sense, "Let him lose his life"--that is, let him destroy and lose that perverted and unnatural use which he now makes of his life, and through which his desires are fixed on temporal things so that he gives no heed to eternal. It is written: "Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner."(5) The latter clause of this sentence seems to forbid benevolence; for it says, "help not a sinner." Understand, therefore, that "sinner" is put figuratively for sin, so that it is his sin you are not to help.
===

From what I read its not to mix up benevolence and crime. In the john 6 case the Disciples did not stone Jesus and proceed to cannibalism and eat Jesus As Augustine says its matter of injury vs charity......we are obligated to charity and forbid injury.

Now someone desperate to deny real presence grabbed that one line out of context and proceeds to stretch as a stance against real presence.



Most protestants believe in real presence. The problem is some might HEAR its "spiritual". Spiritual means differ things to differ people. Some people say SPIRITUAL is like some sort of required make-believe fairy tale. That something happening spiritually is a lesser reality. You can even have a friend say I only like you "spiritually", makes you wonder what the heck is that suppose to mean. Or even that SPIRITUAL means SYMBOLIC.


Calvin believed in real presence, that the bread had the actual spirit of the body, but that the bread was still bread.

What I believe bit closer to what we saw earlier with JOHN being Brother to Jesus. I don't care what I saw, or what I would count as evidence, Its only the fact that Jesus calls it, then it is so. That bread is REALLEY divinely Jesus' DNA. The bread is Christ.

There is deeper respect for the Eucharist its the only surviving SCRIPTURE that JESUS wrote himself. It is humbly written on the universal paper of Men and Women and with the universal ink of Bread and Wine.

I never had to verify the Eucharist from scripture because it already is Jesus hand picked method of communication. If anything scripture has to get a pass and okay to go from the Eucharist.

This is very subtle and easily skipped over if you presume that ink and paper is superior in authority to spoken word or any other action of communication. Find that verse in scripture that says ink and paper is greater, your bound to run into just the opposite:

2 Corinthians 3
3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.