It is not in the bible !

[utilyan]

Catholicism is a lot like the Greek myth of Sisyphus. You work and work and work to roll that boulder up the hill every day, only to have it roll back down the hill every time you sin.

It's a terrible burden that can never be met.

Biblically, the purpose of the law is to drive us to the cross, where Christ has kept the law on our behalf and has atoned for our sins because we could not do either.

But Catholicism embraces the law, while rejecting the purpose of the law.

That is a misrepresentation, a Lie. Simply show where Catholics say we are saved by "works alone".

We actually have a catechism that says what we believe, You got this easy issue wrong its no surprise you get the bible wrong too.


A simple example where neither works nor faith was required to save would be Paul himself. Paul did not have faith in Jesus nor was he doing good works. Yet out of mercy Jesus Christ intervened.


Also show us scripture where Loving God and Loving neighbor is a "terrible burden".

Scripture says

Matthew 11

30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

The direct opposite.

For Jesus not to sin was a piece of cake.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

That is a misrepresentation, a Lie. Simply show where Catholics say we are saved by "works alone".

So, you falsely attribute words to me which I never said and then call me a liar?

Clever.

We actually have a catechism that says what we believe

I know. I have to cite it for you all the time because you're so unfamiliar with what your own religion teaches. You also have the Council of Trent, which pronounces anyone who believes you can be saved without works to be "anathema".

A simple example where neither works nor faith was required to save would be Paul himself. Paul did not have faith in Jesus nor was he doing good works. Yet out of mercy Jesus Christ intervened.

That's your assumption. The Bible never says Paul didn't have faith. You're committing the logical fallacy of arguing from silence.

Also show us scripture where Loving God and Loving neighbor is a "terrible burden".

Never said it was.

 

[utilyan]

The OT believers were saved by the same faith Abraham had, which was Abraham believed God whenever "God Said". Abraham believed in God's Messiah to come, he did not know His name, but he knew He was coming and He would fulfill all that God had revealed Messiah would be.

The conversation we are having here with our Catholic friends is whether or not a person can reject Jesus Christ is the Messiah and still be saved just because they "love God". Paul declared that their "zeal of God" or in other words their "love, passion of God" could not save them because they refuse God's Messiah that has come.

The Catholic teaching opposes Paul and God's Word on this and declares people who "sincerely" love God in their own way do not have to accept God's revealed knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that they will be saved by their own love of God. As you can see from Adonia's and Ultylian's responses, they do not care what the Word of God says about it, they have obligated themselves to side with the RCC no matter what. One even said they would believe Mickey Mouse was the Messiah if the RCC says so. Very sad.....

Now you can understand why millions will flock to the Antichrist when he comes on the seen spreading peace and love and doing many wonderful miracles. He will declare that he is the Christ and the Pope will point to him and say 'here is our Messiah' and all the people caught up in the RCC will flock to him and kiss his hands and feet, just like they do the Pope, just because the Pope has declared him so.

Satan believes Jesus Christ is God. That simply does not save him at all.

God doesn't want you to sin ever again. You still do and every single one of those sins rejects Jesus Christ.


Had a Muslim taught you who Jesus is you would be telling me he is just a prophet and not God at all.

There is a difference between rejecting the truth and what is presented as truth.


The Good Samaritan was in no way Jewish let alone a Christian.



Listen to Paul preach to Pagans:

Acts 17

22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23“For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”


Calling Pagans children of God, you would have never preached this, in fact your camp down plays Paul calling them children of God to "offspring" as if the offspring of a person was something different then a child.



Scripture says God is Love. yet I find tons of Christians who don't believe it.




This is not at all an issue for me because my God is understanding, smart, reasonable, merciful, kind and loving.

Unlike other folks idea of God who is like a angry chimp who got so angry had to abuse someone and chose to abuse his child.


You wouldn't be afraid around my God because he is exactly like Jesus Christ, merciful kind and loving.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You wouldn't be afraid around my God because he is exactly like Jesus Christ, merciful kind and loving.

Then we clearly follow two different gods, as the Bible says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[utilyan]

So, you falsely attribute words to me which I never said and then call me a liar?

Clever.



I know. I have to cite it for you all the time because you're so unfamiliar with what your own religion teaches. You also have the Council of Trent, which pronounces anyone who believes you can be saved without works to be "anathema".



That's your assumption. The Bible never says Paul didn't have faith. You're committing the logical fallacy of arguing from silence.



Never said it was.

Paul did not have faith he tells us himself in timothy, you should read it sometime.

Paul tells you the only reason Jesus saved him was BECAUSE HE WAS IGNORANT.

Timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Perfect Patience. Paul did not believe Jesus was God, Paul was even a blasphemer and percecutor, full of UNBELIEF. Its on the FAITH AND LOVE in Jesus Christ in which he was saved.




You can't be saved without works. Namely Loving God. Name one person in heaven who does not LOVE GOD.

Even SATAN qualifies under works not required. Under your system Satan would go to heaven because he totally trusts and believes in Jesus Christ.

You think you can be in heaven and hate God?

And if you want to really get legalistic. John 3:16 God so love the world, gave his son. That is a work. Jesus death on the cross that is a work.

Our perfect example how to live a christian life is Jesus Christ. I didn't see him groveling to other humans by faith alone, he did works.



I'm giving you scripture, partner. And your just shooting blanks.

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

You can have ALL FAITH, mine , yours, perfect faith have it all. But if you don't have that one tiny good work called Love, you have nothing.

That is beautiful scripture. I don't have to butcher it or anything, it means exactly what it says.

Just like James 2:

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Beautiful Scripture. PERFECT. Martin Luther who invented faith alone wanted to get rid of this scripture because he knew it went against his false teaching.

Satan doesn't like that scripture either. There is plenty of pastors who would love to ignore James 2.



19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Wow thats what I was looking for earlier. Maybe God is trying to tell you something.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Paul did not have faith he tells us himself in timothy, you should read it sometime.

Paul tells you the only reason Jesus saved him was BECAUSE HE WAS IGNORANT.

Verse, please.

You can't be saved without works.

Catholics believe works are a means of salvation. Christians believe the Bible's teaching that works are a result of salvation, not a means of salvation.

Even SATAN qualifies under works not required. Under your system Satan would go to heaven because he totally trusts and believes in Jesus Christ.

Actually, Satan is an angel, not a man so salvation is not available to Satan.

Second, Satan has not repented nor received Christ nor will God enable him to do so.

And if you want to really get legalistic.

No thanks. I'll leave that to the Catholics.

I'm giving you scripture, partner. And your just shooting blanks.

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

You can have ALL FAITH, mine , yours, perfect faith have it all. But if you don't have that one tiny good work called Love, you have nothing.

That is beautiful scripture. I don't have to butcher it or anything, it means exactly what it says.

Just like James 2:

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You're still afraid to post the first 23 verses because you know they show that works are evidence of salvation, not a means of salvation.

Martin Luther who invented faith alone wanted to get rid of this scripture

First of all, Luther didn't invent sola fide. He just helped to codify it.

Second, what is your evidence for this claim?

because he knew it went against his false teaching.

There is plenty of pastors who would love to ignore James 2.

Says the guy who repeatedly ignores James 2:1-23

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 12:30 AM Pacific.

 

[utilyan]

Verse, please.



Catholics believe works are a means of salvation. Christians believe the Bible's teaching that works are a result of salvation, not a means of salvation.



Actually, Satan is an angel, not a man so salvation is not available to Satan.

Second, Satan has not repented nor received Christ nor will God enable him to do so.



No thanks. I'll leave that to the Catholics.

"verse please"

I just showed you timothy 1, Man if you missed that on my post, there is no telling what you miss on the bible.

He says : Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Thats verse 13.


How many faithful folks you know who don't believe in God? that is absurd.


"Catholics believe works are a means of salvation. Christians believe the Bible's teaching that works are a result of salvation, not a means of salvation. "

We have to use very precise language. You don't believe God did anything to save you? Because that is a work.

Now if your implying that Catholics believe that works only a person on his own can achieve salvation without any aid of God, that is a LIE.

We don't teach that.



Now listen to yourself the reason you say Satan is not saved is because he doesn't repent. That's a work buddy.

You can't repent hating God.


Love God is a work.

You skipping around not willing to face this fact.

Hating God is a sin and sin does not give salvation.

1st commandment, LOVE GOD. absolutely required.


Show us this person who is in heaven and hates God.


Salvation found outside of loving God, That's something the devil would say.

 

[utilyan]

Then we clearly follow two different gods, as the Bible says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

A empty glass is the beginning of a drink of water, and being stupid is the beginning of intelligence.

It doesn't mean stupid is intelligent, nor is a empty glass a drink.

1 john 4

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

[utilyan]

"Christians believe the Bible's teaching that works are a result of salvation, not a means of salvation. "

Oh yeah?

You got that from romans?

Romans 3

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.


Well clearly the "GOOD WORKS" questioned in romans 3 was the Judaisers bringing up circumcision required to be saved.

I would say circumcision is not required at all. But if you want to believe that works is a result of salvation, Then I expect everyone of you who declares to be justified by "faith alone" now actually having the faith has now been circumcised as "a result of salvation".

I also expect each of you to maintain the Sabbath and the entire list of "WORKS" as "a result of salvation"

Point being "works" being a result of salvation is nonsense.


The correct teaching is only Jewish Ceremonial Laws were negated. But since you want to stretch it to mean all good works. Fine we are now playing this game.

So I want to hear you observe Sabbaths days as Jews and are circumcised "as a result of your salvation".

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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