It is not in the bible !

[steaver]

The purpose of the Mass is the re-enactment of the Last Supper and that fateful day on Calvary (His Memorial) that is the focus, not the sermon (as occurs in your service) and that is exactly what we do . "Do this in memory of me" Jesus said - so we surely follow His command.

Having said that, we have a liturgical form of worship and as our brother utilyan said we have 3 readings from the Scriptures (OT, NT, and a Gospel) and it makes no difference if those readings are printed in a book called "The Bible" or they are printed in a book called "A Missal" - they are one and the same.

So how is a person saved Adonia?

Can any religious, loving person make a freewill conscience decision to reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved?

What sayeth the scripture...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge"

What this Paul? They have a zeal of God?! How wonderful!

What is "zeal" ?

zeal
zēl/
noun

1. great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
   "his zeal for privatization"
   synonyms: passion, ardor, love, fervor, fire, avidity, devotion, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness, appetite, relish, gusto, vigor, energy, intensity;
   fanaticism

Why doesn't their love of God save them Paul?

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Ro10).

Well, have you submitted yourself to the righteous of God? Or have you gone about to establish your own, or chose to follow those who have established their own?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So how is a person saved Adonia?

Can any religious, loving person make a freewill conscience decision to reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved?

What sayeth the scripture...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge"

What this Paul? They have a zeal of God?! How wonderful!

What is "zeal" ?

zeal
zēl/
noun

1. great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
   "his zeal for privatization"
   synonyms: passion, ardor, love, fervor, fire, avidity, devotion, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness, appetite, relish, gusto, vigor, energy, intensity;
   fanaticism

Why doesn't their love of God save them Paul?

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Ro10).

Well, have you submitted yourself to the righteous of God? Or have you gone about to establish your own, or chose to follow those who have established their own?

Catholicism is a lot like the Greek myth of Sisyphus. You work and work and work to roll that boulder up the hill every day, only to have it roll back down the hill every time you sin.

It's a terrible burden that can never be met.

Biblically, the purpose of the law is to drive us to the cross, where Christ has kept the law on our behalf and has atoned for our sins because we could not do either.

But Catholicism embraces the law, while rejecting the purpose of the law.

 

[Yeshua1]

PERFECT answer of Jesus Christ.

Luke 10

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”


Do you believe Jesus Christ?

that is NOT the way to get saved, as eternal life is found by receiving jesus thru faith alone, and not of any works!

 

[steaver]

Looks like we need a bump! Would like to hear from our catholic friends why Paul said love for God could not save Israel.

 

[steaver]

The purpose of the Mass is the re-enactment of the Last Supper and that fateful day on Calvary (His Memorial) that is the focus, not the sermon (as occurs in your service) and that is exactly what we do . "Do this in memory of me" Jesus said - so we surely follow His command.

Having said that, we have a liturgical form of worship and as our brother utilyan said we have 3 readings from the Scriptures (OT, NT, and a Gospel) and it makes no difference if those readings are printed in a book called "The Bible" or they are printed in a book called "A Missal" - they are one and the same.

So how is a person saved Adonia?

Can any religious, God loving person make a freewill conscience decision to reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved?

What sayeth the scripture...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge"

Paul says they have a zeal of God?!

What is "zeal" ?

zeal
zēl/
noun

1. great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
   "his zeal for privatization"
   synonyms: passion, ardor, love, fervor, fire, avidity, devotion, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness, appetite, relish, gusto, vigor, energy, intensity;
   fanaticism

Why does Paul declare Israel's love of God does not save them, yet the RCC declares that people's love of God will save them? Why does your religion's declarations override the Apostle Paul's declarations?

 

[Adonia]

So how is a person saved Adonia?

Can any religious, God loving person make a freewill conscience decision to reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved?

What sayeth the scripture...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge"

Paul says they have a zeal of God?!

What is "zeal" ?

zeal
zēl/
noun

1. great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
   "his zeal for privatization"
   synonyms: passion, ardor, love, fervor, fire, avidity, devotion, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness, appetite, relish, gusto, vigor, energy, intensity;
   fanaticism

Why does Paul declare Israel's love of God does not save them, yet the RCC declares that people's love of God will save them? Why does your religion's declarations override the Apostle Paul's declarations?

That word "zeal" is a great word, and it reflects perfectly the zeal (love) we have for Jesus as we receive Him in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Adonia]

Catholicism is a lot like the Greek myth of Sisyphus. You work and work and work to roll that boulder up the hill every day, only to have it roll back down the hill every time you sin.

It's a terrible burden that can never be met.

Biblically, the purpose of the law is to drive us to the cross, where Christ has kept the law on our behalf and has atoned for our sins because we could not do either.

But Catholicism embraces the law, while rejecting the purpose of the law.

Why do you continue to misread the Catholic faith teachings? We do not leave anything out, be it either faith in the saving grace of Jesus, the things the Scriptures tell us to do like be baptized, to receive Him in the Holy Eucharist, and the good works (love) command - we believe it all. Don't you?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why do you continue to misread the Catholic faith teachings? We do not leave anything out, be it either faith in the saving grace of Jesus, the things the Scriptures tell us to do like be baptized, to receive Him in the Holy Eucharist, and the good works (love) command - we believe it all. Don't you?

We believe the scriptures themselves as the ONLY authority for doctrines and practices, so most of what your church practices and teaches not in there!

 

[steaver]

That word "zeal" is a great word, and it reflects perfectly the zeal (love) we have for Jesus as we receive Him in the Holy Eucharist.

Well that is wonderful. But could you answer my questions? Your church teaches one can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved on love of God. Paul said no, Israel had this love of God and were not saved. How do you agree with the RCC over what Paul said?

 

[Yeshua1]

Well that is wonderful. But could you answer my questions? Your church teaches one can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved on love of God. Paul said no, Israel had this love of God and were not saved. How do you agree with the RCC over what Paul said?

The RCC teaches that God will save others sincere in their faith, such as Muslims, and yet ex catholics and others who willingly deny the Catholic faith are anathema!

 

[SovereignGrace]

So why didn't the Holy Spirit impregnate a prostitute?

The scriptures foretold of the Christ coming from a virgin. That's why the Spirit did not 'impregnate' a prostitute.

 

[Adonia]

Well that is wonderful. But could you answer my questions? Your church teaches one can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved on love of God. Paul said no, Israel had this love of God and were not saved. How do you agree with the RCC over what Paul said?

I personally would not try to say what God would or would not do when it comes to being saved and neither is the Catholic Church despite what St. Paul says. God can offer salvation to anyone He wants to, whether they be a Hindu, a Muslim, an Atheist, to whomever He chooses. He is after all God - and that to me says it all.

 

[steaver]

I personally would not try to say what God would or would not do when it comes to being saved and neither is the Catholic Church despite what St. Paul says.

This says it all Adonia. "Despite what St. Paul says"? You are actually saying "despite what God says". Unless of course you do not believe Paul was an Apostle for Christ. You have revealed the error of the RCC, the Church's statements of faith, no matter how contradicting to the very Word of God, trumps the very Word of God. And millions have been deceived, including yourself. But you cannot seem to break away, even though you can clearly see the error.

God can offer salvation to anyone He wants to, whether they be a Hindu, a Muslim, an Atheist, to whomever He chooses. He is after all God - and that to me says it all.

God has offered salvation to ALL the world, to ALL caught up in any religion.. Key word is "offered". One must ACCEPT the atonement for sin,Jesus Christ, otherwise, NO salvation. The Apostle Paul speaking on behalf of Jesus Christ declared that one having a "love of God" was not sufficient for salvation.

Why do you cling to the RCC when you can clearly see, as Martin Luther did, that they have gone about to establish their own righteousness??? This is very sad for you....

 

[JohnDeereFan]

God can offer salvation to anyone He wants to, whether they be a Hindu, a Muslim, an Atheist, to whomever He chooses. He is after all God - and that to me says it all.

No, actually, He can't.

That may be true according to Catholic beliefs, but it isn't what Christianity teaches.

What you're suggesting is universalism, which is heresy.

11This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

For God to save men apart from the prescribed formula revealed in scripture, He would have to violate both His Word and the legal requirements for salvation.

 

[Happy]

So how is a person saved Adonia?

Can any religious, God loving person make a freewill conscience decision to reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved?

What sayeth the scripture...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge"

The issue is not between Catholic's and Non-Catholics.

Paul is speaking about "Israel" and "lack of their "accepting" the knowledge being "given" them.

OT men were declared "saints", for trusting, believing, and submitting to the LORD, "based on the knowledge given them".

The "knowledge" of OT men, which those called saints believed, was that the "Word of God" was supreme in all matters.

Later, further knowledge revealed, was that the Word of God, was manifested in the flesh, came to earth from heaven, AND was "declared" to be called "Thee Son of God", called by the name JESUS.

^ That knowledge was never revealed to OT men.
^ That is the (according to) "knowledge" Paul is speaking of.
The point is; (even as Paul himself), accepted God, believed the Word of God, however COULD NOT believe,
this "man" called JESUS, could be "the Word of God", God Himself, manifested, in the flesh likeness as a man.

It was Paul, himself who believed the Word of God; who could not believe the Word of God was manifested in the flesh, THEN came to believe (according to) the knowledge revealed to him, that the Word of God WAS manifested in the flesh......and further him being chosen for the difficult task of teaching other men, what he himself could not "at first" believe and accept.



Catholics AND believers who are NOT Catholic, both believe the Word of God was manifested in the flesh, "according to" the knowledge revealed.

It is Catholics who purport themselves as being privy to knowledge....and "their" understanding thereof on other issues, that sets Catholics and Non-Catholics apart.

God loving person make a freewill conscience decision to reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved?

OT men did not ACCEPT Jesus Christ is the Son of God.....but then they did not "reject" it either.
Meaning they could not "reject" knowledge that was kept hidden from them.

The new revelation is; the Knowledge IS revealed, and WILL BE KNOWN world wide, so none will have excuse to say, "they didn't know ie, they never heard the knowledge that Christ Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Happy]

No, actually, He can't.

Adonia said: ↑
God can offer salvation to anyone He wants to, whether they be a Hindu, a Muslim, an Atheist, to whomever He chooses. He is after all God - and that to me says it all.

Actually Christ Jesus DID offer salvation to "EVERYONE", without regard to a "name-tag" of religious preference.

John 6

1. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The point is Christ made a offering of His flesh FOR the life of the world.

There is NO CAVEAT in His "offering". He accomplished His offering.

Heb 10

[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Verified. One offering, BY Jesus. The offering was His BODY of flesh. And His offering was for ALL.

Done deal. Once and For ALL, Jesus accomplished.

NOW the CAVEAT ~ which applies to the "ALL".

The caveat..... "IF".

"IF" the "ALL"....or any portion of the "ALL".... TRUST, BELIEVE and ACCEPT Christ Jesus' offering...

"THEN" what Jesus offered, becomes "theirs"..... TO RECEIVE.

Jesus provided something for ALL, it is "theirs" to receive.

"IF" they reject receiving, they LOSE what Jesus provided for them (all).

It is a misnomer, that ALL RECEIVE, because Jesus provided.
It is the "receiving" party (ie. people) that MUST accept what Jesus provided....and NOT "ALL" accept or receive what Jesus provided. (They who do not receive, as scripture teaches, die IN THEIR Sins, and lose out on their salvation, BECAUSE they didn't receive it.)

 

[Yeshua1]

The issue is not between Catholic's and Non-Catholics.

Paul is speaking about "Israel" and "lack of their "accepting" the knowledge being "given" them.

OT men were declared "saints", for trusting, believing, and submitting to the LORD, "based on the knowledge given them".

The "knowledge" of OT men, which those called saints believed, was that the "Word of God" was supreme in all matters.

Later, further knowledge revealed, was that the Word of God, was manifested in the flesh, came to earth from heaven, AND was "declared" to be called "Thee Son of God", called by the name JESUS.

^ That knowledge was never revealed to OT men.
^ That is the (according to) "knowledge" Paul is speaking of.
The point is; (even as Paul himself), accepted God, believed the Word of God, however COULD NOT believe,
this "man" called JESUS, could be "the Word of God", God Himself, manifested, in the flesh likeness as a man.

It was Paul, himself who believed the Word of God; who could not believe the Word of God was manifested in the flesh, THEN came to believe (according to) the knowledge revealed to him, that the Word of God WAS manifested in the flesh......and further him being chosen for the difficult task of teaching other men, what he himself could not "at first" believe and accept.



Catholics AND believers who are NOT Catholic, both believe the Word of God was manifested in the flesh, "according to" the knowledge revealed.

It is Catholics who purport themselves as being privy to knowledge....and "their" understanding thereof on other issues, that sets Catholics and Non-Catholics apart.



OT men did not ACCEPT Jesus Christ is the Son of God.....but then they did not "reject" it either.
Meaning they could not "reject" knowledge that was kept hidden from them.

The new revelation is; the Knowledge IS revealed, and WILL BE KNOWN world wide, so none will have excuse to say, "they didn't know ie, they never heard the knowledge that Christ Jesus is the Son of God.

Is Jesus Yahweh in human flesh?

 

[steaver]

OT men did not ACCEPT Jesus Christ is the Son of God.....but then they did not "reject" it either.
Meaning they could not "reject" knowledge that was kept hidden from them.

The OT believers were saved by the same faith Abraham had, which was Abraham believed God whenever "God Said". Abraham believed in God's Messiah to come, he did not know His name, but he knew He was coming and He would fulfill all that God had revealed Messiah would be.

The conversation we are having here with our Catholic friends is whether or not a person can reject Jesus Christ is the Messiah and still be saved just because they "love God". Paul declared that their "zeal of God" or in other words their "love, passion of God" could not save them because they refuse God's Messiah that has come.

The Catholic teaching opposes Paul and God's Word on this and declares people who "sincerely" love God in their own way do not have to accept God's revealed knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that they will be saved by their own love of God. As you can see from Adonia's and Ultylian's responses, they do not care what the Word of God says about it, they have obligated themselves to side with the RCC no matter what. One even said they would believe Mickey Mouse was the Messiah if the RCC says so. Very sad.....

Now you can understand why millions will flock to the Antichrist when he comes on the seen spreading peace and love and doing many wonderful miracles. He will declare that he is the Christ and the Pope will point to him and say 'here is our Messiah' and all the people caught up in the RCC will flock to him and kiss his hands and feet, just like they do the Pope, just because the Pope has declared him so.

 

[Happy]

The OT believers were saved by the same faith Abraham had, which was Abraham believed God whenever "God Said". Abraham believed in God's Messiah to come, he did not know His name, but he knew He was coming and He would fulfill all that God had revealed Messiah would be.

The conversation we are having here with our Catholic friends is whether or not a person can reject Jesus Christ is the Messiah and still be saved just because they "love God". Paul declared that their "zeal of God" or in other words their "love, passion of God" could not save them because they refuse God's Messiah that has come.

The Catholic teaching opposes Paul and God's Word on this and declares people who "sincerely" love God in their own way do not have to accept God's revealed knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that they will be saved by their own love of God. As you can see from Adonia's and Ultylian's responses, they do not care what the Word of God says about it, they have obligated themselves to side with the RCC no matter what. One even said they would believe Mickey Mouse was the Messiah if the RCC says so. Very sad.....

Now you can understand why millions will flock to the Antichrist when he comes on the seen spreading peace and love and doing many wonderful miracles. He will declare that he is the Christ and the Pope will point to him and say 'here is our Messiah' and all the people caught up in the RCC will flock to him and kiss his hands and feet, just like they do the Pope, just because the Pope has declared him so.

Okay, thanks.
I am not privy to what Catholics believe, based on their Doctrines which I have not read, or based on what Catholic's I know, have said, since it seems they have individual personal views which seemingly are not based on any particular Doctrine.

Additionally, you begin speaking of Catholics, then speak specifically of two posters, and the RCC.
Does the RCC and non-RCC Catholics have different beliefs ?

The Catholic teaching opposes Paul and God's Word on this and declares people who "sincerely" love God in their own way do not have to accept God's revealed knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God

Is this your "assessment" based on "what" they say, or "their" own words?

Thanks.

 

[Happy]

Is Jesus Yahweh in human flesh?

No. Human flesh is created from the dust of the earth and sinful, according to scripture.

Is Jesus Yahweh in the likeness of/as human flesh?

Yes. Jesus' flesh body was "prepared" of God, and came down from heaven, void of sin, according to scripture.