The Bible trumps the church at Rome and it's traditions that go contrary to scripture.
Why would you follow the words of fallible men when you could follow the words of an infallible God?
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Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?
- Thread starter Adonia
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Why would you follow the words of fallible men when you could follow the words of an infallible God?
And where do you get your interpretation? By the fallible men who came up with the interpretations that are contrary to the orthodox interpretations that have been passed on to you of course!
Given that you've already admitted that the Catholic Church practices eisegesis in interpreting the scriptures, I'd have to say that alone makes our fallible men more trustworthy than your fallible men.
By the word of God. What did God tell us in His word? This supercedes all other views.
When orthodox teaching is in alignment with the Bible it is good. When it relies on traditions that have no basis in the Bible, it should be cast out and thrown away as an idol created by fallible men.
How exactly are you following the words of an infallible God when the infallible God inspired Peter to say, "baptism now saves you"
How clear can it be? Jesus, who is the infallible God said the same thing Peter said, "he who believes and is baptized will be saved." Again, how clear does God have to be?
I'm not sure what fallible men you follow for your interpretation but those two verses don't need an interpreter. Read them as written.
So you're telling us that God contradicted other portions of scripture which tell us that works cannot save, but inspiring Peter to tell us that we must do a work to be saved?
It's clear from the text that it is not water baptism Peter is talking about.
If you make that claim you negate the rest of scripture. Do you call the rest of scripture wrong just to make water baptism saves you?
You are very close to preaching heresy as you are denying being saved by grace.
1 Peter 3:21 isn't about water baptism? Then what is it about? That verse makes the rest of scripture "wrong" only if you have the wrong understanding of what Grace is and what Grace does. Peter knows we are saved by Grace yet he has no problem saying we are saved in water baptism. Jesus knows we are saved by Grace yet He has no problem saying we are saved by water baptism.
We can both say we are sinners saved by Grace but we meant radically different things.
Please tell me, what is your definition of Grace?
While I would disagree with Martin Luther on most of his theology he got this one right. He too was accused of salvation by works when he taught that baptism was necessary for salvation. He rebuttal was that baptism is a work of God not a work of man.
From Luther's Large Catechism
"For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore, although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do.....But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what, then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's"
You cannot be saved by grace and still be saved by water baptism. Peter could not be speaking of water baptism as saving a person. The baptism that takes place at the moment we are made alive in Christ is the baptism of the Spirit of God.
What you are requiring is two steps to salvation. In requiring steps you require salvation by works, not by grace.
Sbg, if you refuse to read and consider what Piper wrote, you should do the same with the Roman church. Be consistent.
What is your definition of Grace?
God giving to us what we don't deserve.
"For it is by grace you are saved, through faith, yet not of yourselves, it is the gift of God so that no one can boast."
Water Baptism is cause for boasting. It is an action on your part, not grace, which is a gift of God to you.
God's grace in salvation is given once. The priest does not need a continual sacrifice where you go get the batteries recharged to make it effectual. Once and for all time.
Grace...God giving you what you don't deserve.
That's not what Grace is and therein lies your problem. John 1 :14 says that Jesus was full of Grace. Jesus was full of what you don't deserve?
Eph 2: 28 says we are saved by grace...........it is the gift OF God.....not FROM God but OF God. That's what Grace is. It is God Himself that is infused into our soul that MAKES us righteous. ( Romans 5:19) We are not "declared' righteous. That would be fake righteousness, something God would never do.
Peter is referring to Grace when he say we can partake of the "divine nature"1 Peter 1:4
Paul is referring to Grace when he says, "For the love of God has been poured into our hearts." Romans 5:5
Simply put Grace is the power of God that causes our will to be conformed to His will so that we have the desire and the ability to obey His commandments, to pursue holiness without which no one will see God. That is how we are saved. This gift of God is not of ourselves and therefore we cannot boast. It is not given because we have done something without God's assistance, it is given because God is merciful and wants everyone to be saved. It is an unmerited Gift of Himself. We were created for good works in Christ Jesus and God's grace is what produces good works which is God working in us.
By this infusion of God we are born again, made a new creation. This Grace is called Sanctifying Grace and it is first received in water baptism which is why Peter says, Baptism now saves you. That is why Jesus can say those who believe and are baptized will be saved.
There is another Grace and that is the movement of the Holy Spirit which causes us to seek God and to come to faith but we are not justified until we receive God's divine nature in water baptism which is why Paul says, "but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11
We can fall from Grace, His divine nature, and be cut off from Christ as Paul says in Galatians 5: 4
This is why Scripture warns born again, saved believers that if they commit certain sins they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
What an Unbiblical mess Catholicism is.
You are claiming to be God, sbg. Your understanding of grace is not biblical.
God is full of grace. He gives us what we don't deserve every moment of every hour. He took us out of deadness in our trespasses and sins, and he gave us new life in Christ our Redeemer.
Just as grace is not earned, grace can never be unearned, causing God to revoke his gift. If it were so, salvation would be by our own works, not by the good and gracious gift of God. Jesus would not have needed to die on our behalf. We could have worked our way to the mark through our own efforts.
But...that was not possible. We died in our sinful effort and fell short of the mark. We needed God to do what we could not, ourselves, do. We needed God to give us what we did not deserve. We needed God's grace, which is a gift from God, not from our works, so that we cannot boast of our efforts.
You propose a method by which you can boast. Added to this, you claim to be God by virtue of union with Christ. Both claims are heretical on your part.
No, again, the ONLY saving Grace is applied when the sinner receives Jesus as their Lord thru/by faith, NOT in ANY sacrament!
The baptism is the Holy Spirit work to place us into the body of Christ when we first believed!
Jesus had the Holy spirit sicne His Conception though, and are you saying that he need to be baptized to remit His sins?
That happens at time of faith in jesus, when born again!
Paul stated that htere is but ONE mediator between us and God, Jesus!
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