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Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?

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JohnDeereFan

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What saved him was the Grace of God. That's what cause him to have faith, repent and confess. It's faith and works not faith by itself. It all God's Grace.

So first, you said that his faith wasn't enough to save him, which implies works were necessary. Then you said that God saved him by grace, which implies no works. Do you know what the Bible says about a double minded man?

It's amazing you can't see the difference between the work of man and the work of God.

Just because I don't accept your cult's beliefs doesn't mean I don't see the Biblical distinction between a work of God and a work of man.

Is sanctification a work of man? Can you become holy by your own power?

Again, no.

All of James condemns faith alone.

Chapter 2 doesn't, which is why you refused to quote it.

It a doctrine invented by Luther.

So Luther invented Romans 4, Galatians 2, Ephesians 2, etc? Wow! That Luther sounds like smart guy.

Show me one verse, just one, that actually says we are justified by faith alone.

I've shown you several.

Yes, Matthew 25 judgment of the nations. Those kind of works will be necessary. If all you have to show is your faith "alone" you will be among the unrighteous and sent to hell.

Thankfully, I'm not a Catholic and that is not what our religion teaches.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Yes, if righteousness were from the law of Moses then Christ died for no purpose. Righteousness comes from the infusion of God Himself into our soul where we are "made" righteous. Romans 5:19

Sorry, but that isn't what the Bible says.

Luther didn't invent the epistles but he did invent faith "alone.'

You've been shown where the Bible says that we are saved by faith alone.

let's see how confident you are that the doctrine of faith alone is in the bible.

I will give you $30,000 and renounce my Catholic Faith and join your church if you can find one verse in the King James, NIV, ESV, NET, RSV bible that says we are justified/saved by "faith alone"

If I can find one verse in the bible that says the opposite you must give me $30,000 and become Catholic.

First of all, this is stupid even for you. First of all, you've been shown more than sufficient scriptures that show salvation is by faith alone and not by works, both by me and by other posters

Second, I don't take school yard dares.

Third, there's no way you would be allowed to join our church. You don't meet any of the criteria for church membership and your behavior wouldn't help matters.

Fourth, there's no way I would leave Christ for the damnable pagan cult of Catholicism.

When I was a kid, I accidentally fell into an open septic tank some men were working on. I don't go back to the Catholic Church for the same reason I don't jump back into a septic tank: they both stink and they're both full of the same thing.

Go to the link that says Genesis. It will take you to the Greek that shows the people Peter is speaking about had full knowledge of Jesus Christ. They had to have been regenerated for that to be possible.

First of all, Genesis wasn't written in Greek.

Second, nobody in Genesis was regenerated because the Holy Spirit hadn't been sent yet. They weren't even under the Old Covenant, yet, much less the New.
 
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saved by grace

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Grace does not come from communion or baptism. It comes from God by God's ordained choice, not from the works of taking communion or baptism.
You kill grace when you add the requirement of the sacraments onto salvation.
You gave this definition of grace " God giving to us what we don't deserve."

with that understanding what does scripture mean when it says Jesus is "full of grace?"

Grace does come from the Eucharist and Baptism. That's why baptism can save. That's why Jesus said in John 6:58 that those who receive the Eucharist will live forever.
 

saved by grace

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Grace did not cease to be given. They had turned their backs on God's grace to instead try hitting the mark by works.
In today's terms...They left the church the Baptist church that preached the good news of God's gift of grace to go back to the Roman church where they needed to work their way to God.
In today's terms they fell from grace. They were cut off from Christ because they were believing in a false gospel like eternal security.
 

saved by grace

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So first, you said that his faith wasn't enough to save him, which implies works were necessary. Then you said that God saved him by grace, which implies no works. Do you know what the Bible says about a double minded man?



Just because I don't accept your cult's beliefs doesn't mean I don't see the Biblical distinction between a work of God and a work of man.



Again, no.



Chapter 2 doesn't, which is why you refused to quote it.



So Luther invented Romans 4, Galatians 2, Ephesians 2, etc? Wow! That Luther sounds like smart guy.



I've shown you several.



Thankfully, I'm not a Catholic and that is not what our religion teaches.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Yes, if righteousness were from the law of Moses then Christ died for no purpose. Righteousness comes from the infusion of God Himself into our soul where we are "made" righteous. Romans 5:19

Luther didn't invent the epistles but he did invent faith "alone.'

let's see how confident you are that the doctrine of faith alone is in the bible.

I will give you $30,000 and renounce my Catholic Faith and join your church if you can find one verse in the King James, NIV, ESV, NET, RSV bible that says we are justified/saved by "faith alone"

If I can find one verse in the bible that says the opposite you must give me $30,000 and become Catholic.

Deal or no deal?
 

MennoSota

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You gave this definition of grace " God giving to us what we don't deserve."

with that understanding what does scripture mean when it says Jesus is "full of grace?"

Grace does come from the Eucharist and Baptism. That's why baptism can save. That's why Jesus said in John 6:58 that those who receive the Eucharist will live forever.

God is the giver of grace. Therefore God, Jesus, is full of grace. Even if God only chose one person to adopt, He would still be full of grace. Why? Because our sin rightfully damns us to hell and God is under no obligation to pardon...yet He chooses to do so out of His abundant grace. Grace is truly amazing. It would not even be grace under your concept. It would be merited works under your teaching.
 

JohnDeereFan

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In today's terms they fell from grace. They were cut off from Christ because they were believing in a false gospel like eternal security.

How is Christ's promise of eternal security a "false gospel"?

Let's start with the most obvious:

John 6:35-40 says 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

So, here we have three promises:

a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him.

b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him

That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation?

c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day.

Does God now break His promises?

And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance...

Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of God not being willing that any should perish?


Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true.

Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son?

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

((For the record, since the Bible tells us not to answer a fool according to his folly, I will no longer be responding to this troll. Should have stopped about a dozen posts ago, but better late than never. I will, however, leave these verses in support of the Biblical doctrine of eternal security if anyone else would like to address them.))
 
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saved by grace

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God is the giver of grace. Therefore God, Jesus, is full of grace. Even if God only chose one person to adopt, He would still be full of grace. Why? Because our sin rightfully damns us to hell and God is under no obligation to pardon...yet He chooses to do so out of His abundant grace. Grace is truly amazing. It would not even be grace under your concept. It would be merited works under your teaching.
Nowhere did you explain how your definition of grace fits with John 1.
How is Jesus full of "giving us what we don't deserve."

Why would it be merited? It is freely given. If someone is outside handing out $100 bills and all I have to do is accept it, how is that working for it?

yes, Grace is truly amazing because it conforms our will to God's will.
 

saved by grace

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So first, you said that his faith wasn't enough to save him, which implies works were necessary. Then you said that God saved him by grace, which implies no works. Do you know what the Bible says about a double minded man?



Just because I don't accept your cult's beliefs doesn't mean I don't see the Biblical distinction between a work of God and a work of man.



Again, no.



Chapter 2 doesn't, which is why you refused to quote it.



So Luther invented Romans 4, Galatians 2, Ephesians 2, etc? Wow! That Luther sounds like smart guy.



I've shown you several.



Thankfully, I'm not a Catholic and that is not what our religion teaches.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.



Sorry, but that isn't what the Bible says.



You've been shown where the Bible says that we are saved by faith alone.



First of all, this is stupid even for you. First of all, you've been shown more than sufficient scriptures that show salvation is by faith alone and not by works, both by me and by other posters

Second, I don't take school yard dares.

Third, there's no way you would be allowed to join our church. You don't meet any of the criteria for church membership and your behavior wouldn't help matters.

Fourth, there's no way I would leave Christ for the damnable pagan cult of Catholicism.

When I was a kid, I accidentally fell into an open septic tank some men were working on. I don't go back to the Catholic Church for the same reason I don't jump back into a septic tank: they both stink and they're both full of the same thing.



First of all, Genesis wasn't written in Greek.

Second, nobody in Genesis was regenerated because the Holy Spirit hadn't been sent yet. They weren't even under the Old Covenant, yet, much less the New.
What does Genesis have to do with it? Go to the link and it will show you the Greek word for "knowledge" that is in 2 Peter 2:20 and it shows these people who have fallen were regenerated. They had full knowledge of the divine.

You can't take my challenge because you know that the only place is Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are in James 2:24 where your theology is condemned.
 

saved by grace

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MennoSota

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Nowhere did you explain how your definition of grace fits with John 1.
How is Jesus full of "giving us what we don't deserve."

Why would it be merited? It is freely given. If someone is outside handing out $100 bills and all I have to do is accept it, how is that working for it?

yes, Grace is truly amazing because it conforms our will to God's will.

You would, in your trespasses and sins, flee from God if he was offering a billion dollars. No matter what God offered, you would reject it because God is holy and you are a wretch. Like Adam and Eve, you would hide in terror and wish that God would leave.
Only when God calls you out and actively puts the $100 in your hand would you respond in recognition that God had just been gracious to you by giving you something you didn't deserve.

You have this mistaken concept that you are capable of willfully choosing God. If you could, you would be able to pat yourself on the back for your good choice.

But, you are not capable of choosing God. You are only capable of moving toward hell and away from God.
 

MennoSota

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Baptism is a sacrament. Peter says, Baptism now saves you.

We are saved by grace. Sacraments are the means by which God has chosen to freely given His grace which is why Paul says that he is an "administrator of grace" in Eph. 3:2. He gives out the grace of God through the sacraments.
We've gone over this. Your interpretation of this verse is wrong and it has been thoroughly debunked. You are just stubborn.
Nowhere does the Bible call the Lord's Supper or Baptism a sacrament. Your church made it up. Ask yourself why?
I can tell you. They used it as a scare tactic to get the princes to kowtow to the churches will. Simply have your priests refuse to administer communion or infant baptism and the petrified serfs would revolt against the prince because they superstitiously thought they would go to hell if they didn't get their wafer and wine and died before recharging the "I'm good with God for another week" batteries of false salvation.

The Roman church has been diabolical in its manipulation. It is closer to Islam in its behavior than it is to grace filled Christianity.
 

saved by grace

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="MennoSota, post: 2311654, member: 13096"]We've gone over this. Your interpretation of this verse is wrong and it has been thoroughly debunked. You are just stubborn.

it's not my interpretation. Baptismal regeneration has been believed by Christians from day one. Every Church Father believed in it. You are the one who has a modern day heretical interpretation.

Nowhere does the Bible call the Lord's Supper or Baptism a sacrament. Your church made it up. Ask yourself why?

Nowhere do we see the word Trinity either. Sacrament is a Latin word however from day one the Eastern Greek rite of the Catholic Church has called the sacraments "mysteries" which is in the bible. That is exactly what Paul means when he says, " This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God." 1 Cor. 4:1

There you have it. The Greek word used for sacraments from day one.
 

saved by grace

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You would, in your trespasses and sins, flee from God if he was offering a billion dollars. No matter what God offered, you would reject it because God is holy and you are a wretch. Like Adam and Eve, you would hide in terror and wish that God would leave.
Only when God calls you out and actively puts the $100 in your hand would you respond in recognition that God had just been gracious to you by giving you something you didn't deserve.

You have this mistaken concept that you are capable of willfully choosing God. If you could, you would be able to pat yourself on the back for your good choice.

But, you are not capable of choosing God. You are only capable of moving toward hell and away from God.
Not capable of choosing God? I sense a Calvinist. Interesting that your dogma comes from a fallible man instead of an infallible Church.

Does this sound like we are incapable of choosing God?

Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as
scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Why would God ask us to reason with Him, if we were so dead in our sins that we couldn’t reason with
Him

Men are required to make a choice for God in this lifetime

Isaiah 55:3 "Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an
everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David."

Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him
return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly
pardon."

God’s words are very clear. Are you listening?
 

MennoSota

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Not capable of choosing God? I sense a Calvinist. Interesting that your dogma comes from a fallible man instead of an infallible Church.

Does this sound like we are incapable of choosing God?

Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as
scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Why would God ask us to reason with Him, if we were so dead in our sins that we couldn’t reason with
Him

Men are required to make a choice for God in this lifetime

Isaiah 55:3 "Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an
everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David."

Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him
return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly
pardon."

God’s words are very clear. Are you listening?

Was Isaiah written to a chosen people or not? Are the verses you quote poetic or not? Sbg, if you are going to quote the Bible, be honest in your quotation. Any hack can pick a verse and use it as a proof text for a pretext out of context. Your use here is proof of such sloppiness.

As for me, you sense a person who reads the Bible and questions those who misuse scripture. Perhaps you might spend more time reading Augustine if you must require a commentator to build your belief system for you. Augustine was Calvin's beacon of light in the dark valley of the Roman Church.

Augustine recognized that God did the work of making people alive when they were dead in their trespasses and sins; incapable of choosing God. Augustine rightfully rebuked Pelagian for his heresy. It is unfortunate that the church of Rome eventually moved toward Pelagian beliefs over time and taught salvation by works rather than salvation by grace.

Take off your rosary colored glasses and let God's word speak without adding the bias of the Roman church. It will be hard for you to do. But honest Bible study where you observe, question, interpret and then apply will be vital to your biblical growth. Keep the order I provided and do not go to the commentaries until you have done the work of observation, questioning and personal interpretation. If all the commentators of various Christian groups disagree with your interpretation then red flag your interpretation. There are no "brand new" interpretations that escaped scholars. But, looking at commentaries should come last. Try it.
 

saved by grace

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Was Isaiah written to a chosen people or not? Are the verses you quote poetic or not? Sbg, if you are going to quote the Bible, be honest in your quotation. Any hack can pick a verse and use it as a proof text for a pretext out of context. Your use here is proof of such sloppiness.

As for me, you sense a person who reads the Bible and questions those who misuse scripture. Perhaps you might spend more time reading Augustine if you must require a commentator to build your belief system for you. Augustine was Calvin's beacon of light in the dark valley of the Roman Church.

Augustine recognized that God did the work of making people alive when they were dead in their trespasses and sins; incapable of choosing God. Augustine rightfully rebuked Pelagian for his heresy. It is unfortunate that the church of Rome eventually moved toward Pelagian beliefs over time and taught salvation by works rather than salvation by grace.

Take off your rosary colored glasses and let God's word speak without adding the bias of the Roman church. It will be hard for you to do. But honest Bible study where you observe, question, interpret and then apply will be vital to your biblical growth. Keep the order I provided and do not go to the commentaries until you have done the work of observation, questioning and personal interpretation. If all the commentators of various Christian groups disagree with your interpretation then red flag your interpretation. There are no "brand new" interpretations that escaped scholars. But, looking at commentaries should come last. Try it.
All of the quotes from Isaiah show that we have the free will to chose or not choose God.

It amazing that you want to claim Augustine, a Catholic Bishop, a Doctor of the Catholic Church, a canonized saint of the Catholic Church as having anything to do with the heretic Calvin.
You need to actually read Augustine instead of relying on third parties.

St. Augustine denies that man is evil by nature, and can do no good whatsoever in a fallen state. If you want me to bury you with quotes from Augustine let me know.

Take off your rosary colored glasses and let God's word speak without adding the bias of the Roman church

How does directly quoting from Jesus and Peter add bias?

Does Peter say baptism now saves you?..........yes he does.

Does Jesus say he who believes AND is baptized will be saved?...........yes he does

Does James say we are justified by works and not by faith alone? .......yes he does

Did they all know we are saved by grace? Yes..........and they correctly understood what grace and what grace does and saw no contradiction in their teaching on baptism and good works and being saved by grace.
 

JohnDeereFan

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All of the quotes from Isaiah show that we have the free will to chose or not choose God.

I hate to be the one to have to point out the obvious, but Isaiah was written to the Jews who were under the Old Covenant. Under the Old Covenant, people were not saved as they are under the New Covenant.
 

MennoSota

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All of the quotes from Isaiah show that we have the free will to chose or not choose God.

It amazing that you want to claim Augustine, a Catholic Bishop, a Doctor of the Catholic Church, a canonized saint of the Catholic Church as having anything to do with the heretic Calvin.
You need to actually read Augustine instead of relying on third parties.

St. Augustine denies that man is evil by nature, and can do no good whatsoever in a fallen state. If you want me to bury you with quotes from Augustine let me know.



How does directly quoting from Jesus and Peter add bias?

Does Peter say baptism now saves you?..........yes he does.

Does Jesus say he who believes AND is baptized will be saved?...........yes he does

Does James say we are justified by works and not by faith alone? .......yes he does

Did they all know we are saved by grace? Yes..........and they correctly understood what grace and what grace does and saw no contradiction in their teaching on baptism and good works and being saved by grace.
You are a quote master, sbg, unfortunately they are usually out of context.
 
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