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Volition

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Hello, Brother. Hopefully this helps.

    "made alive" means we are no longer condemned.

    "made alive" means that the Spirit of God has brought us into Union with Christ and the Father

    "made alive" means that We have a Sonship through Adoption by the Holy Spirit

    "made alive" means we have peace with God

    How many of those definitions has anything to do with "being drawn" by God?

    I've never equated those definitions with "drawn" in ANY sermon I have preached. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not.
     
    #61 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, we all know that.

    Yes, we all know that.

    Yes, we all know that.

    Yes, we all know that.

    All of them. Without the drawing of the Father we would have none of them.

    That's too bad. :(

    Pretty sure you are. Without the drawing of the Father none of us would be saved. Jesus made that very clear in John 6.
     
    #62 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  3. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Brother, I believe you are being intellectually dishonest...you said...

    All of what I described happens AT Regeneration, The drawing happens before. Yes, the difference is a big deal.
     
    #63 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I have never been much of a man follower.
    Sounds biblical to me.
     
    #64 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Amen, it's good to follow the God-Man.

    I can't argue that
     
    #65 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And I believe you are being deliberately insulting and engaging in a scurrilous personal attack.

    Nope. Simultaneous. Every person drawn by the Father is a Christian. Bar none. See John 6.

    Only in your mind. John 6 makes it clear. All that the Father draws come to Christ.
     
    #66 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  7. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I just quoted what you said...how is that a scurrilous personal attack?

    Drawing is not regeneration, why not just admit that you were wrong? I'm not going to think less of you. No one here is going to think less of you. I promise.

    Where are the two equated in scripture?
     
    #67 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You accused me of being intellectually dishonest. Your exact words: "Brother, I believe you are being intellectually dishonest."

    Of course it is.

    Because I am not.

    John Chapter 6 (for the 3rd or 4th time).
     
    #68 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Brother, I was hoping this conversation was going to be fruitful. It is not. Let's use your logic

    You say Regeneration is Drawing, you said Regeneration Is being made alive.

    Drawing means having peace with God?

    Drawing means Partaking in the Sonship with Christ?

    Drawing means Being no longer Condemned?

    Drawing means Being placed in Spiritual Union with Christ?

    Drawing means being a New Creation in Christ?

    I've NEVER heard those things being equated. And you're trying to convince they are the same thing?

    Come on, brother.
     
    #69 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Wait...what's even more disturbing is that People here have equated Regeneration to being "made alive" and calvinists believe Regeneration precedes faith...How can any of these things happen BEFORE Belief/faith?
    Can any of these be a reality to someone who Doesn't have FAITH, who does not yet BELIEVE?

    Thanks guys, you have helped me to confirm I'll never be "reformed" or a "calvinist" because it is unbiblical and illogical.

    @TCassidy So yes, my question about "What does it mean to be made alive" seemed to be important here.
     
    #70 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Then you have never heard good bible exposition.

    I doubt I can convince you of anything. "A man convinced against his will Is of the same opinion still." Until you want to believe the Truth you will continue to deny it.

    Yes, "regeneration" means to be "made alive." Re = again. Generation = made or born. We are made alive again, this time spiritually. Because faith is the result of being born again, not the cause of it. The unsaved man hates God, cannot accept the truth of the Gospel, considers the whole subject to be foolish, he is incapable of understanding them.
    I am not "reformed" or a "calvinist" either. I am a Baptist and believe as the baptists have believed historically in Particular Redemption.

    But the very fact that you are willing to completely close your mind to what the bible says, and to a lesser extent what is logical and reasonable (Isaiah 1:18) is very troubling. My mind is open to any biblical or logical argument.

    The greatest hindrance to learning is the thought "I already know all about that." :(
     
    #71 TCassidy, Apr 28, 2017
  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    My mind IS open to Logical arguments as well.

    Let's look at ONE thought...

    Regeneration is equal to being "made alive" and Being made alive is equal to Being a Son of God. Correct?

    How can a person be a Son of God prior to belief/faith??? that is IMPOSSIBLE. If regeneration (equal to being a Son of God) is before Faith, then you are saying One can Be a Son of God BEFORE Faith. IMPOSSIBLE!
     
    #72 JonShaff, Apr 28, 2017
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Because faith is the result or regeneration.

    What is impossible is for a non-believer to believe. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

    One is born into the Family of God, which results in 1 Corinthians 2:14 no longer preventing him from believing. Faith, repentance, and obedience are the result of regeneration, not the cause of it. Salvation is by Grace, not by works.

    Yes, it is impossible for for an unbelieving believer to exist. The very idea of an unbelieving believer is an oxymoron!

    The unbeliever is God's enemy. The unbeliever does not accept/receive spiritual truth. They are foolish to him. He cannot even know them. He must first have the Holy Spirit of God to guide him into all truth.

    God is not impotent in Salvation. His Grace is always efficacious, it accomplishes exactly what He intends it to accomplish.
     
    #73 TCassidy, Apr 29, 2017
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  14. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    You believe Faith Comes After Regeneration. How is a person a "Son of God prior to Faith"??? That is Unbiblical.
    Ummmm...all believers were "non-believers" prior to being believers ;)
    Ok, but you say "faith" is *after* being in the Family of God...how can one be in the Family of God without Faith????

    Quote me where I said unbelieving believers exist.

    So, you say regeneration means you have peace with God, Correct? And one is no longer an enemy with God. But you say Regeneration/made alive/peace with God precedes belief, correct? How can someone have Peace with God WITHOUT Belief?

    Can you not see how illogical it is to have Regeneration preceding Faith/belief?

    If you are "Alive in Christ" you are Regenerated, If you are Regenerated you are not condemned. You say Regeneration precedes belief, so how is a person no longer condemned if they have not yet believed????? John 3:18

    Come on brother
     
    #74 JonShaff, Apr 29, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  15. TCassidy

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    By the regenerating Grace of God. Which includes giving him faith.

    Yes. But they were not believers while still unbelievers. That is a logical contradiction. They were regenerated by the Grace of God in order to believe, repent, and obey.

    By being born (again) into His family and immediately being given faith, repentance, and the desire to obey.

    You said belief precedes regeneration. An unregenerate person is, by definition, an unbeliever.

    He is a believer from the second he is regenerated.

    Can you not see that the unregenerate are unbelievers?

    They do believe, as soon as they are regenerate.

    Where are we going? My hope, and prayer, was that you would walk with me into accepting sound bible doctrine. I cannot deny my calling. :)
     
    #75 TCassidy, Apr 29, 2017
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Spiritually alive of course. Which comes when one believes and is regenerated by calling upon the Lord.
     
    #76 revmwc, Apr 29, 2017
  17. JonShaff

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    I do believe what the Bible says, that it is impossible to be Be Made Right With God Prior to Faith. You Claim it is possible to be Right with God Prior to Faith. You say Regeneration "causes Faith"...So by your logic, a Person is Right with God before Faith. That is unbiblical.
     
    #77 JonShaff, Apr 29, 2017
  18. TCassidy

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    Once again you miss-state what I said. A person is regenerated and immediately given the faith to believe, repent, and obey.
     
    #78 TCassidy, Apr 29, 2017
  19. JonShaff

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    How am I miss-stating what you say? You said A person is "Born again", Which means "made alive" which equates to "Being Righteous" and THEN is "Given Faith" as a gift so He can believe and repent and obey. That is unbiblical my friend.
     
    #79 JonShaff, Apr 29, 2017
  20. JonShaff

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    *stands back and watches the house of cards fall....
     
    #80 JonShaff, Apr 29, 2017
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