Indulgences

[Darrell C]

Speaking of indulgences, I think it is a pretty common error among those who, though having a sincere desire to see men saved, may witness from a platform not as solid as they think it to be. And while this is the topic I was discussing with another member, I want that member to know I am not singling him or even this particular topic out, but am starting this thread for the purpose of investigating (1) the Catholic Teaching and practice, (2) how Catholics perceive the Doctrine and practice, and finally, (3) how those antagonistic to the doctrine and practice perceive it and how they implement it in their "witnessing" to Catholics.

So this is open to Catholics and Protestants and Evangelicals, and please, it is not intended as a thread to bash each other over the head in. Just present what you know about it, historically and from a contemporary understanding.

And those who are History buffs who can contribute what they know are welcome as well.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Speaking of indulgences, I think it is a pretty common error among those who, though having a sincere desire to see men saved, may witness from a platform not as solid as they think it to be. And while this is the topic I was discussing with another member, I want that member to know I am not singling him or even this particular topic out, but am starting this thread for the purpose of investigating (1) the Catholic Teaching and practice, (2) how Catholics perceive the Doctrine and practice, and finally, (3) how those antagonistic to the doctrine and practice perceive it and how they implement it in their "witnessing" to Catholics.

So this is open to Catholics and Protestants and Evangelicals, and please, it is not intended as a thread to bash each other over the head in. Just present what you know about it, historically and from a contemporary understanding.

And those who are History buffs who can contribute what they know are welcome as well.


God bless.

Indulgence - Wikipedia
n the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, an indulgence is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins".[1] It may reduce the temporal punishment after death, in the state or process of purification called Purgatory. This temporal punishment would not be considered "time", as Purgatory, like Heaven and Hell, is said to exist "outside of time".

The Catechism of the Catholic Churchdescribes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".[2]

The recipient of an indulgence must perform an action to receive it. This is most often the saying (once, or many times) of a specified prayer, but may also include the visiting of a particular place, or the performance of specificgood works.

The true Gospel has NONE of that!

 

[Darrell C]

Indulgence - Wikipedia
n the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, an indulgence is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins".[1] It may reduce the temporal punishment after death, in the state or process of purification called Purgatory. This temporal punishment would not be considered "time", as Purgatory, like Heaven and Hell, is said to exist "outside of time".

The Catechism of the Catholic Churchdescribes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".[2]

The recipient of an indulgence must perform an action to receive it. This is most often the saying (once, or many times) of a specified prayer, but may also include the visiting of a particular place, or the performance of specificgood works.

The true Gospel has NONE of that!

Official Catholic Doctrine.

Wikipedia is not official anything.


God bless.

 

[MennoSota]

The Roman Church teaching on indulgences. Can't make up the false teaching, I just have to quote it.

"An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).

Indulgences are part of the Church’s infallible teaching. This means that no Catholic is at liberty to disbelieve in them. The Council of Trent stated that it "condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them"(Trent, session 25, Decree on Indulgences). Trent’s anathema places indulgences in the realm of infallibly defined teaching.

Primer on Indulgences | Catholic Answers

 

[Yeshua1]

The Roman Church teaching on indulgences. Can't make up the false teaching, I just have to quote it.

Primer on Indulgences | Catholic Answers

Wonder why our brother is trying so hard to defend an Apostste church?

 

[Adonia]

Off the top of my head and from what I know about it, they are something that the Church has that links with the "binding and loosing" issue. Personally, it's one of the things that has fallen by the wayside and I say that is a good thing. I won't leave the faith because of it - it's just not relevant to me.

 

[MennoSota]

Off the top of my head and from what I know about it, they are something that the Church has that links with the "binding and loosing" issue. Personally, it's one of the things that has fallen by the wayside and I say that is a good thing. I won't leave the faith because of it - it's just not relevant to me.

The current pope has affirmed indulgences, Adonia. It, sadly, has not fallen by the wayside.

 

[Adonia]

The current pope has affirmed indulgences, Adonia. It, sadly, has not fallen by the wayside.

It is not one of the things that is bandied about by the priest at the local level. No one at church I ever talk to says: "Hey, I got me an indulgence today", so to me as a regular parishioner it has indeed fallen by the wayside.

 

[MennoSota]

It is not one of the things that is bandied about by the priest at the local level. No one at church I ever talk to says: "Hey, I got me an indulgence today", so to me as a regular parishioner it has indeed fallen by the wayside.

This may be true, but such a teaching in the church should be held up against Scripture and questioned. This was the purpose of the Reformation...to question the teachings of the Roman church that were not found in Scripture. Indulgences were at the forefront, but the church at Rome wanted all who question her teachings to repent or be killed.
It is okay to question church leadership.

 

[rsr]

The current pope has affirmed indulgences, Adonia. It, sadly, has not fallen by the wayside.

Not only affirmed, but reinvigorated with the Year of Mercy. There was quite a bit of sentiment to eliminate them entirely at Vatican II, but that didn't happen.

 

[Darrell C]

The Roman Church teaching on indulgences. Can't make up the false teaching, I just have to quote it.

Primer on Indulgences | Catholic Answers

"An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).

Indulgences are part of the Church’s infallible teaching. This means that no Catholic is at liberty to disbelieve in them. The Council of Trent stated that it "condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them"(Trent, session 25, Decree on Indulgences). Trent’s anathema places indulgences in the realm of infallibly defined teaching.


Okay, missed this at first, but thanks for meeting the challenge.

Now, explain what a Catholic understands...

opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins

...this to mean, and in particular what "temporal punishment" means.

And please give us the Catholic definition from their own literature that is official.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Wonder why our brother is trying so hard to defend an Apostste church?

First, I am not defending the Catholic Church, I am defending Christians. And if you want to say there are no Christians in the Catholic Church then do so. If you want to say that members like Adonia are not Christians...

...do so.

Secondly, your Jack Chick approach to witnessing is weak, offensive, and relies heavily on repeating what men say Catholics say (and believe), so I am addressing your particular approach to "witnessing," which seems little more than Catholic bashing, and the only one that benefits from such activity is you and those who also try to validate their own faith in Christ by belittling others.

Third, I have declared on numerous occasions...I have issues with certain Doctrines taught by the Catholic Church, but, just as their are people in groups "we" might view as acceptable that are in large part ignorant of Scripture as well as what their groups teach, even so among Catholics there are believers who have not invested their time looking at Official Doctrinal Positions held by those who are fanatical in their understanding and adherence within the Catholic Church.

Lastly, you have been asked numerous times to show official statements of Catholics, yet you refuse to do so.

Do so.

The topic is Indulgences, and it is not indulging one's need to bash Catholics that this thread is about. Look at the list MennoSota provided, and quote from it, and show why you disagree with what is officially taught.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

This may be true, but such a teaching in the church should be held up against Scripture and questioned. This was the purpose of the Reformation...to question the teachings of the Roman church that were not found in Scripture. Indulgences were at the forefront, but the church at Rome wanted all who question her teachings to repent or be killed.
It is okay to question church leadership.

Why do you ignore what he has just said?

Nevertheless, we could about the heresy that came out of the Reformation, such as A-millenialism, or their un-biblical teaching on Regeneration, or, the denial that God loves the world as a whole, enough that He would manifest in flesh and die on a Cross.

But we won't talk about that, because the topic is Indulgences, and while this thread is not directed at you, and open for a sincere discussion of the issue, you are the one that motivated the thread with your derision about how Catholics believe in indulgences, which brings me back to my original question:

Why do you ignore what he has just said?

He just told you it is not something he even embraces, and you ignore that.

And that has been the point in numerous posts for quite a while, all for the purpose of trying to get a simple truth across to you: you can't indiscriminately bash any group and condemn all their members...because there is simply no uniformity in any group great enough to warrant such an approach. Whether you like it or not God saves even Catholics, MennoSota.

The fact that one holds to error does not preclude salvation in Christ. Every man and woman He has ever saved was ignorant of Truth, and He saves them anyway. That 's the beauty of the Gospel of Christ, my friend.

Now, please support your statement concerning Indulgences and quote from Official Catholic Doctrine exactly what it is they teach about it, and what you disagree with.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Not only affirmed, but reinvigorated with the Year of Mercy. There was quite a bit of sentiment to eliminate them entirely at Vatican II, but that didn't happen.

Please present an official statement from the Catholic Church, and why you disagree with it, so that we might better understand this issue by looking at what is actually taught.

Then we can look at what the Catholics here understand about it, and whether they embrace those issues that might be considered error within Catholic Doctrine.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The Roman Church teaching on indulgences. Can't make up the false teaching, I just have to quote it.

Primer on Indulgences | Catholic Answers

In looking at the link, I am not sure I would view this as Official Catholic Doctrine. Looks more to be commentary provided by Catholics that is run by layman.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The Roman Church teaching on indulgences. Can't make up the false teaching, I just have to quote it.

Primer on Indulgences | Catholic Answers

From the same site:

Myths about Indulgences

Indulgences. The very word stirs up more misconceptions than perhaps any other teaching in Catholic theology. Those who attack the Church for its use of indulgences rely upon—and take advantage of—the ignorance of both Catholics and non-Catholics.

What is an indulgence? The Church explains, "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1).


Here are two I see as relevant to your own statement on another thread:

Myth 5: An indulgence will shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days.


The number of days which used to be attached to indulgences were references to the period of penance one might undergo during life on earth. The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general, much less in a specific person’s case.


Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.


The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Another quote that might interest some:


What an indulgence is not

To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.


Open to both Catholics and Protestants to comment on.


God bless.

 

[MennoSota]

Why do you ignore what he has just said?

Nevertheless, we could about the heresy that came out of the Reformation, such as A-millenialism, or their un-biblical teaching on Regeneration, or, the denial that God loves the world as a whole, enough that He would manifest in flesh and die on a Cross.

But we won't talk about that, because the topic is Indulgences, and while this thread is not directed at you, and open for a sincere discussion of the issue, you are the one that motivated the thread with your derision about how Catholics believe in indulgences, which brings me back to my original question:

Why do you ignore what he has just said?

He just told you it is not something he even embraces, and you ignore that.

And that has been the point in numerous posts for quite a while, all for the purpose of trying to get a simple truth across to you: you can't indiscriminately bash any group and condemn all their members...because there is simply no uniformity in any group great enough to warrant such an approach. Whether you like it or not God saves even Catholics, MennoSota.

The fact that one holds to error does not preclude salvation in Christ. Every man and woman He has ever saved was ignorant of Truth, and He saves them anyway. That 's the beauty of the Gospel of Christ, my friend.

Now, please support your statement concerning Indulgences and quote from Official Catholic Doctrine exactly what it is they teach about it, and what you disagree with.


God bless.

You are moving the goalposts.

I quoted from a Catholic site.

Yes, there are individuals in the Roman church whom God has made alive in Christ. That doesn't negate the heresy of indulgences.

 

[Darrell C]

You are moving the goalposts.

Not at all.

I quoted from a Catholic site.

So if I quote from a Protestant site run by layman I can affirm this is what all Protestants believe?

Yes, there are individuals in the Roman church whom God has made alive in Christ. That doesn't negate the heresy of indulgences.

And I would agree with that. I do not accept the authority which the Catholic Church, her leadership to be exact, gives herself. But the issue is what do Catholics actually teach, and how is that embraced by the people who are part of the Catholic Church. And we just had a Catholic make it very clear in regards to how he views Indulgences and you ignored it.

Why?


God bless.

 

[MennoSota]

Not at all.




So if I quote from a Protestant site run by layman I can affirm this is what all Protestants believe?





And I would agree with that. I do not accept the authority which the Catholic Church, her leadership to be exact, gives herself. But the issue is what do Catholics actually teach, and how is that embraced by the people who are part of the Catholic Church. And we just had a Catholic make it very clear in regards to how he views Indulgences and you ignored it.

Why?


God bless.

The issue, in this thread, is: What are indulgences and are they taught by the Roman church.

You and a few others have then tried to narrow the debate to only an official document. I shared a quote that comes from an official Roman church document. Whether the website is officially run by the church at Rome is unimportant (but you are now moving the goalposts to require it). The importance, in accordance with the OP, is that it is an official church document, which is what I quoted from the website.
Did the website misquote the church document?