Who wins souls?

He already told us: he read 2 books that said it was okay.

 

" While the Bible does not explicitly forbid the drinking of alcoholic beverages, my convictions about this issue flow not only from scripture but also from my own former struggles as I wrestled against the grip of alcohol....
I discovered Mike's Hard Lemonade, which has an addicting taste to it, but contains enough alcoholic content to get someone drunk, as I got on several occasions. I would sometimes drink after a depressing moment, or when I just wanted to feel the high of alcohol. I would mostly drink at home, or at a party or special event, so by the grace of God I never drove after a drink or broke any laws.


One horrible morning I got so drunk on the stuff that my mind was completely fried, which made it very difficult to focus and reason. " www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/alcoholic_beverages.htm

 

Wait - if no scripture says it's okay, then it's either an argument from silence, or it's not scriptural. Which is it?

(sigh)
Would you like to point out where I've argued against drinking?

If YOU'RE not afraid of what scripture teaches, then how come you keep referring to books instead of scripture?

Let me help you: Romans 14:14 says there is nothing unclean of itself; but it is each of us who determines. It is also each of us who must determine if we are being a stumbling block to others, placing them above ourselves.

That, my friend, is the scripture you seem to think I'm afraid of because I don't count your books as being of equal worth.

 

To be fair to him it is likely he mentions the books because he believes the authors have well explained what scripture says about those topics. He may not be communicating his position well. He does rely heavily on what other men have said about scripture. Somewhere he has picked up the idea that the way he reads books and relies on them to understand scripture is the same thing that any scholar does. Truth is he fails to understand what true research is and where the boundaries are. This is what causes him to miscommunication what he believes he learns from books.

 

The single greatest danger to Christianity is the failure of Leadership. The primary breakdown is the inability of men placed in leadership who have themselves been indoctrinated into Theology Systems which demand a loyalty that usually severs them from the Headship of Christ. Then, loyalty to Systems of Theology demand of the Leadership to sever with those who will not "fall in line." Then, after the Leadership has run those they have been given charge over off...they refuse to go after them, and to restore such an one.

And it is difficult to restore one in a fault if the one in a fault is not considered one of the flock anyway.

Let's not blame the sheep for the shepherds' inabilities.


God bless.

 

I have only one comment, and a question:
I'm not sure there's a "single" greatest danger; I think both you and Jon make excellent points on this.
Where do you stand on "followership"?

 

I would agree with this statement, and suggest it is an element in the breakdown of Leadership in the Body today. On top of that we could point out the lack of discipline. I have on a couple of occasions seen gross failure to exercise discipline within a fellowship, to the point where overt sin was allowed in order to "keep the peace."

I also think Leadership often goes the way of many businesses, where in the beginning there is a sincerity and after a while a necessity to keep things going demands a departure from a rigid maintaining of the values that set them apart to begin with.

In my view Systems of Theology have done more to fracture the Body than possibly any other cause. We have, I believe, men who indoctrinate themselves to the teachings of men rather than subject themselves to the Word of God. I witnessed this with a friend of mine, who was fairly solid in his Theology...until he went to Seminary. Afterwards, he turned from certain views once held and one of the conversations we had a while back had him saying philosophy must be considered before Theology. I was stunned. I was not surprised when he returned to playing music, drinking, and I suspect drug use. For him, it seemed, Theology became simply an element, rather than the cause...of his faith.

I will say that in the quote the jab at "antiquated music" is a bit inappropriate, lol. I happen to like the Old Hymns, as well as the Theology found in them. Some of the fellowships we have visited have been the more modern "Band on the Altar" types that replicate the same chorus over and over, and to be honest one in which we visited recently seemed more like a visit to a nightclub than a worship service. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but, there is something in congregational singing of Theologically correct hymns that prepares my heart for worship, and creates a union with my fellow believers, better than a raucous display and repetitious choruses. Use to be my biggest complaint was...we didn't sing all of the hymn, lol.

But I stand by my view that failure of leadership is the greatest problem in the Body today, and this is not a new problem. It was a problem in the Old Testament, beginning with Adam's failure to obey that which God revealed as His will to him. It is a vicious cycle, because poor leadership turns out more poor leadership, and when the new leadership is directed more towards the teachings of men, rather than the teachings of Scripture, it is not likely that the cycle will be broken. That does not mean I deny that there are a great many fellowships out there with sincere men of God leading their flocks, for there are, but, neither does that mean I don't think that in general there is a failure on the part of many in leadership to truly obey the pattern shown in Scripture considering Leadership.


God bless.

 

First, I think leadership being the primary issue is something that we can track throughout Redemptive History, and see it as a specific element, not only in Israel's history, but in the future Tribulation as well. Because God's Leadership is rejected, those in leadership create serious problems for those who are sincere in desiring to obey the will of God. But, if the leadership is teaching Doctrine and Practice that is going to be accepted (primarily in faith, like children accept the teachings of their parents (when they are very young, lol)) by those in the congregation, which does not encourage Doctrine and Practice that resembles that instructed by the Word of God, we can not be surprised when there is no resemblance. A good example might be leadership which creates "followers" who are more liberal in their views, such as not only accepting homosexuality...but endorsing it. We can't fault , exclusively, those who in good faith believe that God has placed them under genuine leadership that is teaching the Will of God, for embracing those doctrines and practices.

As far as "followship," and I assume that is what you meant rather than fellowship, that is also, in my view, a Basic Principle we see throughout Redemptive History There is a responsibility of new converts to be in submission to the leadership which, we assume, probably led them to Christ to begin with (and this is just the norm, not a concrete principle (that many are saved by a specific ministry and then attend that ministry)). So I think there is a demand for respect to those who are in authority over us, because God has made it clear there is an established authority. We see this in the family, in that the man is to be the spiritual head of the household, and that he, not the wife, will bear the burden of responsibility, and be judged accordingly. We see it in the Church. So a follower of Christ has also a responsibility to follow the instruction given, and while some will be under leadership that is grievously erroneous, we trust God will raise them as His children and deal with the conditions one might be saved in. So "follow-ship" does not nullify God's Sovereignty, or the responsibility of every believer to seek to know better the God Who took the time to supply revelation of Himself and His will, but, we do not expect babes in Christ to feed themselves, any more than we expect infants to run down to the supermarket to get themselves some Infamil.

All of us have responsibilities, to God first and then to each other. Leadership is a grave responsibility that bears greater judgment, for we are all going to be judged according to the understanding we have of God's Word, and what we do with it. I think it is natural for most, when they are new converts, to have a submissive spirit in regards to leadership, and even to fellow believers who have been saved longer. When I was first saved and joined a fellowship, I felt like the scum of the earth amidst a great congregation of Moses'. But, I learned that we are all in the same boat, or perhaps better...Ark, lol.

If you meant to say fellowship, then I would say fellowship is important to our growth, as well as cultivating a reasonable amount of responsibility for our brothers and sisters. We should have a place where we can meet with like-minded believers and worship God. But, the fellowship we have still holds a first obligation to God, and as we grow, I think many of us are going to be compelled to seek out a fellowship where we are more "like-minded," lol. The trap is in thinking we are ever going to find the fellowship that agrees with our own views so completely we don't have...

...anything to grumble about.




God bless.

 

Since this thread is being closed I will just point out that I view there to be a point of confusion when most people think about "soul-winning," which is, the concept of "winning" the immaterial and eternal aspect of men is thought to be in view. I would agree with those who reject that in large part, because only God can save men on an eternal basis, but, Biblical usage of the term "soul" primarily the person in view, rather than his immaterial aspect (his spirit), so if we keep that in mind we should have no problem with the concept of winning people over. This is something I think we can see as a demand, of us, rather than a suggestion, because our daily conversation is to be that of a people set apart from the world, and what we say and do should encourage people to consider the Christ that saved us, rather than cause them to revile Him,

God uses men and women within their capacity and understanding to convey Gospel truth. Who among us cannot express the simple concept of fallen man who is in need of the Savior? So it i just my own opinion that every believer is to be a soul-winner.


God bless.