Who wins souls?

[Don]

Darrell - you were correct; I wrote exactly what I meant ("followership").

Based on your reply, how many of these leaders do you think practiced followership before exercising leadership?

 

[JonC]

I would agree with this statement, and suggest it is an element in the breakdown of Leadership in the Body today. On top of that we could point out the lack of discipline. I have on a couple of occasions seen gross failure to exercise discipline within a fellowship, to the point where overt sin was allowed in order to "keep the peace."

I also think Leadership often goes the way of many businesses, where in the beginning there is a sincerity and after a while a necessity to keep things going demands a departure from a rigid maintaining of the values that set them apart to begin with.

In my view Systems of Theology have done more to fracture the Body than possibly any other cause. We have, I believe, men who indoctrinate themselves to the teachings of men rather than subject themselves to the Word of God. I witnessed this with a friend of mine, who was fairly solid in his Theology...until he went to Seminary. Afterwards, he turned from certain views once held and one of the conversations we had a while back had him saying philosophy must be considered before Theology. I was stunned. I was not surprised when he returned to playing music, drinking, and I suspect drug use. For him, it seemed, Theology became simply an element, rather than the cause...of his faith.

I will say that in the quote the jab at "antiquated music" is a bit inappropriate, lol. I happen to like the Old Hymns, as well as the Theology found in them. Some of the fellowships we have visited have been the more modern "Band on the Altar" types that replicate the same chorus over and over, and to be honest one in which we visited recently seemed more like a visit to a nightclub than a worship service. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but, there is something in congregational singing of Theologically correct hymns that prepares my heart for worship, and creates a union with my fellow believers, better than a raucous display and repetitious choruses. Use to be my biggest complaint was...we didn't sing all of the hymn, lol.

But I stand by my view that failure of leadership is the greatest problem in the Body today, and this is not a new problem. It was a problem in the Old Testament, beginning with Adam's failure to obey that which God revealed as His will to him. It is a vicious cycle, because poor leadership turns out more poor leadership, and when the new leadership is directed more towards the teachings of men, rather than the teachings of Scripture, it is not likely that the cycle will be broken. That does not mean I deny that there are a great many fellowships out there with sincere men of God leading their flocks, for there are, but, neither does that mean I don't think that in general there is a failure on the part of many in leadership to truly obey the pattern shown in Scripture considering Leadership.


God bless.

I have seen people abandon their faith in seminary, and I have seen people become indoctrinated into a theological system. I don't mean this as a slight towards seminary as I am a seminary graduate and I found the experience one of great growth in Christ. So seminary itself is not the problem (perhaps depending on the seminary - I do not believe seminaries are there to indoctrinate people into a specific interpretation of Scripture, although they certainly set the boundaries in terms of what is beyond acceptance). Sometimes churches fall into the error of indoctrinating people into a belief they don't understand as well.

I disagree that systematic theology is a problem. We need to reason through Scripture as a whole, and we see the systematic approach to Scripture implemented in the New Testament itself (John used systematic theology in explaining Jesus as the "logos"; Paul made use of the theology in every epistle he authored; Hebrews reflects systematic theology throughout). We also hold as orthodox truths that are only arrived at through systematic theology (the doctrine of the Trinity, for example).

So while I agree leadership is an issue, I will note that the leaders were once the led. And the leaders are only so because people follow.

 

[Darrell C]

I have seen people abandon their faith in seminary, and I have seen people become indoctrinated into a theological system. I don't mean this as a slight towards seminary as I am a seminary graduate and I found the experience one of great growth in Christ. So seminary itself is not the problem (perhaps depending on the seminary - I do not believe seminaries are there to indoctrinate people into a specific interpretation of Scripture, although they certainly set the boundaries in terms of what is beyond acceptance). Sometimes churches fall into the error of indoctrinating people into a belief they don't understand as well.

All Seminaries are going to have a central System of Theology, and it is unlikely that there is freedom to express, in a learning environment, that which one might disagree with. In other words, the students do not establish what it is they learn, and the teachers do not usually deviate from what they are supposed to be teaching.

I disagree that systematic theology is a problem. We need to reason through Scripture as a whole, and we see the systematic approach to Scripture implemented in the New Testament itself (John used systematic theology in explaining Jesus as the "logos"; Paul made use of the theology in every epistle he authored; Hebrews reflects systematic theology throughout). We also hold as orthodox truths that are only arrived at through systematic theology (the doctrine of the Trinity, for example).

Maybe if I put it this way: The Systems of Theology we see today are in my view one of the greatest hindrances to the Body of Christ we have today.

I agree to a "systematic" approach to the Word of God, however, that does not equate to "The systems of Theology are a Biblical Approach."

And it is not "systematic theology" by which one "arrives at orthodox truth," it is a matter of acknowledging what is written. In other words, one does not have to have a particular approach to recognize basic truths of Scripture, and it is the Systems of Theology that actually blind people to basic truths because the Truth interferes with their system.

An example of that would be the hostility people express when a basic truth such as "The Disciples of Christ were not Christians while they sat under Christ's teachings."

Another would be Men are not regenerated in order to have faith, because if that were the case then we have to equally conclude that men can lose their salvation, because we have enough Scripture to show that there are men who are/were given truth yet they turned from that truth in rejection of it.

Another would be a denial that God has ministered differently in differing Ages.

Another would be that God has progressively revealed knowledge and progressively given understanding of that knowledge.

So I rephrase...the Systems of Theology today do more harm than good, and fracture the Body of Christ, making disciples of men, rather than disciples of Christ.

So while I agree leadership is an issue, I will note that the leaders were once the led. And the leaders are only so because people follow.

And that was my point. Its a vicious cycle, and until believers start reading the Books of the Bible and stop reading books about the Bible, the cycle will continue.

And going out of town, Jon, but appreciate the responses. Wish I had more time to look at this with you, as it is an important issue.


God bless.

 

[JonC]

All Seminaries are going to have a central System of Theology, and it is unlikely that there is freedom to express, in a learning environment, that which one might disagree with.

I do not know your experience, but this was not mine. But this depends on what you mean by “a central system of theology”. I had professors that ranged from free-will Baptist to Reformed Baptist. For the most part, you never knew where the professors stood as this was not their point. This was a Baptist seminary, so there are certain doctrines that were required – but not a theological system.

Maybe if I put it this way: The Systems of Theology we see today are in my view one of the greatest hindrances to the Body of Christ we have today.


I agree to a "systematic" approach to the Word of God, however, that does not equate to "The systems of Theology are a Biblical Approach."

I see. I misunderstood your objection as to be anti-systematic theology when instead you are objecting to some theories that have come out of this method. And I do see the dangers. We have men who blindly follow various theological systems – sometimes they may even be correct in what they believe yet wrong in what they reject. So I do agree with you here, but I think it is because men are prideful. We, by necessity, understand through our understanding. But until we are able to hold our understanding as exactly that we will not be able to dialogue with people we disagree with because we will always see them as inferior. This is a problem.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed. But, it's without prejudice. So, y'all are free to pick up on points of continued interest.

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 1:30 PM Pacific.