Featured Predestination:

Yes. I believe this is supported in the fact that Jesus is revealed to be the Lamb slain from the creation of the world (Rev 13:8), chosen before the foundation of the world (1 Pt. 1:20).

 

We had just as much free-will as did Adam.

 

Scripture tells us what happened with Adam. Nowhere (in the Bible) is it said that his nature changed. We have the same freedom to choose as did Adam, and we commit sin just as did Adam.

 

I'm sorry, what verse was that?

 

No, brother. For clarification, I believe God created Adam with the same nature as you and I - a human nature. I also believe Jesus took upon himself this nature when he became human. But Adam sinned and through his sin death entered the world and spread to all men for all have sinned. But I do not believe we are created with a different nature than Adam.

 

I am not sure. I suppose it depends on how it is defined. I believe we all sin but each sin is wilful rebellion rather than something beyond our responsibility. I guess you could say I believe our sin to be more a matter of the will than how we are created.

That said, I am open to Scripture stating otherwise.

 

That is interesting, and I also have never heard of this position. This is how I see God working through history (God does not author evil, but rather loosens the reigns of his restraining Spirit). I don’t know, however, if this version of a “fallen nature” helps. I say this because if God withdrawing His Spirit caused human nature to be a fallen sin nature then God’s Spirit worked to restrain what was already a sin nature.

I think there is another option as well. Adam was created perfect, but Adam sinned when he submitted to his own will rather than God’s will. Even before the sin there was a something (I believe human will) that pointed inward. God commanded one thing, but desire pointed to something else. Adam, tempted as all men are tempted (not by God but by their own desires) allowed temptation to take root and produce sin.

I think we sometimes forget that Adam made the decision to eat before he ate. And this decision was based on Adam’s desire (the motivation to eat the fruit was there before Adam ate the fruit).

 

So we are not sinners until we sin?

Do we sin because we are sinners or are we sinners because we sin?

 

I never said that we are not sinners until we sin. I believe we sin because we, like Adam, have human desires that we look to above obeying God.

Scripture tells us that something did change when Adam ate of the fruit. His eyes were opened and, like God (who does not have a sin nature), Adam had a knowledge of good and evil. So where does that leave us? The effect of the fall on Adam was that his eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil. This seems to suggest a choice given rather than a choice removed. I believe that mankind, having their eyes opened to good and evil, will choose poorly as we place ourselves over God.

 

The more I think about it, I'm not sure that we can say that "sin nature" is human nature absent the Spirit of God. The reason is that when Adam sinned there was not something removed, but something gained. He gained a knowledge of good and evil (like God has a knowledge of good and evil). So perhaps it is more an issue that Adam was created perfect but without knowing good and evil. Having that knowledge, Adam (and mankind) put himself in the place of God and chooses selfishly. This can, I suppose, be called a "sin nature" because we all do sin. But I think it is based on our wills rather than our nature (if there is a difference).

 

So, do we sin because we are sinners or are we sinners because we sin?

 

I do not believe there are sinless sinners, so I suppose one is a sinner when he or she sins (I don't think Adam was a sinner before he ate of the Tree). That said, we are tempted by what we desire.